Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior
When I read Amy Chua’s article on the WSJ a few days ago, I was appalled that the public’s response was so divided. Many people seemed to actually acknowledge her style of parenting as superior, admiring her for all the effort she has put into raising her children and for their accomplishments at such a young age. As I mulled over the article and the various responses to it on my Facebook wall and other online news sources and blogs, I decided to write a response from a different perspective.
I am a 24 year-old female who was raised by first-generation Chinese parents. After majoring in Computer Science at Princeton, I moved to California to work at Google. After two years, I left to work for myself, and recently joined a small startup in Palo Alto. Whether or not I am considered a success by Asian parents, I am not sure (probably up until the leaving Google part), but I can say with certainty that I am happy with my life. My parents were certainly influenced by Chinese traditions, but they thankfully they did not socialize with that many Asian families, and I was mostly spared the experience Amy Chua describes. Some parts stay with me though. My parents, like most Asian parents, were always critical about physical appearance and weight, and though “well-intentioned,” the criticism always stung. Amy says that the kids don’t take it personally, but I know that I did, and will always remember those occasions when they were too strict or too critical.
I have seen many Asian families who raised their kids like Amy Chua. These kids skip grades (not one but two), compete in piano competitions, are made to study for the SATs everyday as a freshman, the list goes on and on. Their parents justify their methods by bragging off-handedly to other Asian parents about their kids’ accomplishments, mutually confirming that this arbitrary formula is, indeed, the path to success. In reality they are just molding all their kids to look exactly the same on paper. Math competitions, high SAT scores, perfect GPA, valedictorian, 1st place in piano competitions…how many of these resumes do you think college admissions officers see roll in every fall? And then when they don’t get into top-tier universities, Asians complain that schools discriminate against Asian students, that they are more qualified than many of the non-Asians getting into the schools. And ironically, despite the emphasis on music at a young age, most asian parents I know would be pretty upset if their children wanted to major in music and become a professional musician.
Most of my Asian classmates strived for good grades (it was expected of them) and got them, but to them, school was a compartmentalized aspect of their life in which good grades were the sole objective. Despite my own upbringing, where I was encouraged but not pushed forcefully by my thankfully not-too-stereotypical Chinese parents, I too strove for good grades, but stopped when I got the A. Even though I really enjoyed some subjects, I never actively pursued any “school-related” projects on my own through high school and college. In sharp contrast, one of best friends would routinely delve deeper into subjects he found fascinating, teaching himself IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) when he discovered a love for linguistics, and spending one of his free periods doing physics independent study. My husband, who is Caucasian, has an intense love for math and programming that I deeply admire. His parents never made him do math drills, yet he recently worked every night on a math paper that was accepted by a prestigious publication, and is working on a math puzzle book to share his love of math with more people. I, on the other hand, have personally struggled with finding something that I am as passionate about. I honestly hope that our future children’s attitude toward learning is more like that of my husband than my own.
Chinese parents who demand the highest grades from their children at any cost are sadly doing them a great disservice. While it may result in short-term “success,” that mentality makes it incredibly difficult for them to find something they really love.
Amy Chua’s kids are still young. They still have much of high school and college left, not to mention the rest of their lives. While I wish them the best, I cannot help but think of Chinese classmates who had stereotypically strict parents, but partied too hard in college and haven’t really found anything they find fulfilling. I truly believe that many in my generation of ABCs (American born Chinese) lack drive–with parents that watch them do their homework and write their college application essays, they never had to make any hard decisions for themselves. Many are too cautious to take big risks, and instead find themselves stuck in unsatisfying jobs. While trying to give them an academic advantage, these parents are really stunting their personal and social development. Good grades, hard work and discipline can get you far in life, but it that’s all you have and you lack social skills and initiative, you are sorely limited in what you can do.
First generation immigrants want the best for their children, as do all parents, but they really are not that qualified to judge what will lead to a successful and fulfilling life in the United States. Their narrow-minded formula for success (great grades, ivy league, medical school, high paying job) may work for some, but it alienates those who might find success elsewhere. Many highly successful and happy people have gotten to where they are by leaving a stable job to try to start their own company, pursuing a career in the performing arts, or majoring in something other than science, math or engineering, yet all these would be highly discouraged by most Asian parents. When I have children of my own, I hope I will be able to stress the importance of education while they are young, but allow them the freedom to make decisions and mistakes for themselves.
Related posts:
Comments (171)
Wonderfully written article, Jean, showing a very different perspective of parenting from Amy Chua.
I was not particularly upset over Amy Chua’s article, I guess because I was spared from such a strict upbringing. In hindsight, I am thankful that though I was raised by first generation Chinese parents, they never demanded perfection from me in school. However, my father often encouraged me to do well and reach for the stars. That I did on my own volition, and right now I am happily married and a mom of 2.
I would like to think that I am moderate in how I guide my girls in their lives. Academically they are doing ok — however I have to after-school them to make up for the deficiencies of the public school curriculum, and the high competition among their classmates in their G&T class. I’m facing reality — these are the kids my girls have to go up against when it comes to placement in middle school and high school.
My girls have been taking piano lessons since age 5, but my purpose all along was for them to learn to play the piano for their own pleasure. I have always declined for them to sit the NY state piano exams when asked by the director of their music school. That may change in the future, but I plan to leave it up to the girls individually to decide if they want to pursue piano lessons more seriously. At this point, I suspect not.
Like you, my husband is also Caucasian, and his whole approach to life is more relaxed, but I think it is more a personality thing. Yet I see he works very hard and he can work very long hours, but he definitely loves and enjoys his work. I share your sentiment when you expressed hope that your future children’s attitude toward learning is more like your husband’s than your own. It certainly resonated with me, because above all else, I want my children to be happy and find satisfaction in what they do in life.
You sound like you will be a very reasonable and thoughtful mother to your children when the time comes, and I wish you and your husband all the best in the future.
Thanks Greta! My parents also did not push me after a certain age to play piano, and I took lessons for my own enjoyment. I still play from time to time, and enjoy it. Sounds like your girls have a good balance between the different parenting styles!
Dear Jean,
As you know, I am not Chinese nor American-born. However, I recognized myself to a certain extent in Amy Chua’s description of the Chinese mother much more than I’d recognize myself in the American model. The strong common element is that of being an immigrant from a country that saw a lot of suffering in its history. She tends to name the opposite of the Chinese mother as Western mother/parents but the term Western needs to be defined more precisely. If it means non East Asian, then she is wrong, for a lot of Eastern Europeans have a similar attitude toward learning and family relationships (like the requirement to obey your parents, or the tendency to be rather blunt/insulting when criticizing the children). But, in general, what she describes as Chinese – and one still finds in some European traditions – used to be common in ALL western countries until about the middle of the 20th century.
But, looking at the here and now, I agree, there might be problems with this strict approach. My kids also always bring up the fact that its rigidity does not allow for the development of great creativity. I agree. The problem is that, as percentage, there are VERY FEW people who have the right stuff to do something creative, who have the initiative, courage and drive to pursue something special. VERY FEW who even find a passion in their life (and here your husband is a very lucky man). And that has nothing to do with education; it’s simply a person’s makeup. If you consider this, than it’s a matter of statistics. A Chinese, or recent immigrant mother of some other cultures, looks at the future of her children the way an insurance agent does.
The calculation then is this: “there is a small chance that my child will be a great musician, or even a successful entrepreneur, so I must give him what I know will equip anyone with the ability to make a good living. My kid does not have grandparents who are going to leave him houses or other goods when they die; on the contrary, he’ll probably need to provide for quite a contingent of the family. His parents have mortgages rather than fortunes. He should stop the cycle of material want. I’ll ive him what works for most, not what assures success to only 1/1000 and makes the rest still search for something to do long into their adulthood.”
You only told of the ABC’s problems, but if you look around you, how many of your high-school friends with a very laissez-faire education failed miserably, have no real path in life, or are forever addicted to psychotherapy? Over all, as a percentage, who does better? You sacrifice one or two possible geniuses for the sake of the many who’ll fare better.
Another thing that immigrant mothers face, is the need to balance two opposing tendencies. You’d want to have the good from your old tradition and the good of your new world. If you succeed to mix the two, it’s great, and I wish with all my heart that you, and Lara and Ariel can do that with your children. But most of the times it’s difficult and results in a wishy-washy attitude. Sometimes it’s best to stick with what you can pursue with strength, something you know. Better let your kids revolt later than see them fail because your hesitancy did not allow you the necessary determination to guide them.
(in case you wonder how I got to this website: Lara sent it to me)
Well said!
“The strong common element is that of being an immigrant from a country that saw a lot of suffering in its history. ”
Agree!! Another ethnic group that comes to mind are the Jews. In fact some observers in America are calling Asians the ‘new Jews’. Both have suffered more than 2 millenniums of hardship and oppression.
Although the Chinese had lived on their motherland and had largely not been dispersed in the major part of its history, they had been oppressed by their own people and by ill-fated geography–(i) largely incompetent and despotic dictator-emperors and ranks of corrupt officials; (ii) capricious river systems that dish out apocalyptic floods every few years (the Yellow River actually changes its course over hundreds of miles every few years!! Imagine how disruptive that is… In contrast, America is truly blessed with very benevolent river systems).
As a result the Chinese don’t even trust their own people or the ‘gods’–they only trust their own families because when everything else collapses every so often, the family is what still remains. You find this entity called Family that has become almost a religion for the Chinese (there’s actually this widespread and centuries-long practice that’s called ‘ancestor worship’!!).
A lot of what we find that is ’round-the-bend’ or ‘off-the-charts’ about Chinese Parental Angst is, I think, actually the aftermath of centuries of post-traumatic-stress-reactions. Through millenniums the Chinese really had suffered from catastrophic natural or sociopolitical upheavals every few generations. Just over the last century they’ve had the overthrow of the 300-yr Qing dynasty, the Communist revolution, the Cultural revolution, the Deng opening-up & modernization, the One-Child Policy and now the dismantling of that…
Followed over from wsj — relieved to read your more balanced view. Broader sharing of your first person account might help relieve lots of suffering.
All the best!
I totally agree with you. As a 2nd gen Taiwanese-American father of 2 young kids, I’ve realized that the only thing that actually matters is what your kid chooses to do when no one is looking. Focus on developing independently-minded kids who actually want to do the right things for themselves (instead of doing it for others). We need to prepare our kids to be successful when they’re 35, not just when they’re 18.
Great essay! Thanks for sharing.
Very well put Jean! I saw the link you left on WSJ and gladly finished reading your post here. Amy is Shameful of trying to representing ALL Asian parents, whom from my observation conform more to your parents.
Thanks for your comments and rebuttal of that ridiculous article. I raised my multicultural children in China, California and Hawaii. Lots of good and bad influences all around. I though the Falun Gong kids and Tongans who believed in devil things were the weirdest but who am I to judge these things. When they picked up guitar, violin or piano we were there in a flash buying the best we could afford and locating lessons. Now both perform and write music, they are your age, but do many other things too. We did not force them. For several years they were the top students and then they weren’t. They had to find their own level. Now they are both happy, self sufficient and afraid of nothing. They decided to become practicing Buddhists too. The Chinese communists wanted to force them to be in their slave factory school and we retreated to home school till we left. All in all I think we won the battle.
Hi:
I enjoyed both articles. Thanks for writing yours. It’s an important topic, and was a truly fun read.
I’m a “western” dad that works hard for the family and my wife is a fabulous parent who has wonderfully helped navigate our two kids through their early education. Our son just entered college and our daughter will do so in a year and a half. Both are top students. Both play multiple instruments, and have many other accomplishments. We expect a lot from our kids.
I believe our philosophy of parenting has a lot in common with Mrs. Chua’s, but we differ in the following way: Being an excellent student has a point of diminishing returns, beyond which much more effort is needed for little extra payback. We expect and require them to be excellent students, but also to find the things in life that make life worth living. Both of our kids struggled with this search, but have made good choices so far.
One of the great accomplishments in our parenting is that the kids have high expectations of themselves, and no longer need us to pressure them to excel. Instead, we help them visualize the consequences of the different options they have as they leave their birth home. To get to this point, it was necessary that they are motivated from within to excel so they could see beyond the details of struggle and do big things that are important for themselves and their families.
Well said. I find that Amy has painted the Chinese mother with too wide a brush. It’s hard to believe that every Chinese mother would be so strict. Conversely, aren’t there Western parents that push their children to limits some of us find uncomfortable? What about the American mother who enters her toddler in beauty pageants or the father that wants his son to be the next Peyton Manning? Amy wants us to believe that the Chinese mother has a monopoly on being overbearing, but in fact every culture has a place for extreme parents.
Amen! Chinese mothers do not have a monopoly on being overbearing. I grew up in Harlem in NYC and, believe it not, that level of strictness was present in many households – nonimmigrant households.
Very thoughtful and interesting reply. As a 30-something raised by Korean immigrants and herself the mother of a pre-schooler, I’m straddling the line between the child’s perspective and the parent’s. Your piece articulates a compelling argument for moderation.
Hi, Jean.
I just finished reading Amy Chua’s book excerpt in the Wall Street Journal, and while it was entertaining, I pitied her kids.
It reminded me of a quote that a woman said on a love-connection-type game-show in China, after turning down someone because he was too poor: “I’d rather cry in the back of a BMW than laugh on the back of a bicycle”.
For some people, money is expected to buy happiness, and success is all about good grades, a good salary, and good job.
We home-school/unschool our kids, and let them discover what they are interested in. The goal of the parents is to create a stimulating environment, full of opportunity to learn and try things out. Reading, puzzles, games, lots of outdoor activities, organized sports, etc. The philosophy is that learning shouldn’t ever end; as George Bernard Shaw said, “What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge,
not knowledge in pursuit of the child.” It sounds as if your husband enjoys learning for it’s own sake, rather than because you will be graded on it later.
People doing what they love are far better at it than someone who took a job because of the status.
This is a nice response to the original article. Thanks.
Dear Jean:
Well said and I agree with you. At some points, reading her article it came to mind social services might intervene. Some would call it abusive. There is a fine balance between mentoring academic growth and developing good social skills. You’ve cited great examples of how it can be done. Amy Chua also has some great ideas, but in my opinion is way over the top in execution.
I grew up in a home with a single parent during my most formative years. I would have loved to have an adult help teach me piano or violin. I pined over pianos in neighbors homes during my first ten years. It would have ruined it for me had my mother forced the kind of practice sessions she described. A little bit of moderation would still yield fabulous benefits.
Even though brought up in a somewhat chaotic household as oldest of seven children, we’ve all managed very well as adults. We had little structured education at home; even so, I’ve managed to graduate from college with decent grades and enjoy a 30+ year career in Engineering. I now work at Stanford.
I hope you and your family have a great new year.
Sincerely,
Ken
flauding @ stanford.edu (please remove gaps if using)
Very well said, Hsu! I came to the States from China 10 years ago and married to a Caucasian. Now we just had our first child. I definitely don’t want my son to treat learning as an obligation or responsibility, like I did, and still do sometimes subconsciously. I’d be much happier if he turns out more like my husband, who has and still develops passions for learning on a variety of new subjects.
hear, hear! I, too, read that article and was appalled…at both the article and the number of apparent supporters. I am caucasion, but my father’s style was very much like Amy Chua’s. And I resent him to this day for it. I have vowed to never treat my children like that.
(And FWIW, my husband is ABC to immigrant parents and he wasn’t raised like that. Even his parents read the article and thought it was extreme.)
Pingback: Tweets that mention Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior « Jean Hsu -- Topsy.com
I am a first generation Chinese immigrant and I share your view of education. My elder son is in the 7th grade now, and I am a bit harsh on him (not at the grade that Amy is). I will try my best to follow your “suggestions.” At his age, my son is astonishingly interested in news, NPR or NBC Tonight with Dianne or Fox News… not typical of his age. I joked (in a hope as well) he can be a news host…
Like your site that does not mandate an account for me to comment. I welcome you to send me more suggestions in a way as a big sister to my son.
Great response to Amy Chua’s article. I agree that the critical remarks do have a lasting effect. You have made several good observations.
Pingback: Parenting: Is Amy Chua right when she explains "Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior" in an op/ed in the Wall Street Journal? - Quora
Wow. Thanks, I needed this. I really enjoyed your response to the WSJ.com article.
I am Caucasian but studied Mandarin in the 80′s (before it was seen as some fast track to success) and spent a solid five years in China and Taiwan, much of that time spent teaching ESL. I recall most students being either scared or bored. Almost all were totally over worked.
I think their parents wanted the best for them but I sure didn’t feel like cram school was the answer. It seemed to teach them the value of cheating more than anything and to only be “good” when a teacher is yelling at you.
I think you’re right about the importance of each of us seeking to find our passion(s). Some people find success jumping through all those hoops, but plenty don’t.
thanks for sharing these thoughts
Wow. I read “Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior” and was shocked. As a Caucasian American who has children in violin and piano I felt extremely disturbed that she wouldn’t even allow bathroom breaks while at the piano. A good friend of mine was raised by first generation German immigrants in America. They expected a lot of “perfection” out of him and sorry to say, it backfired terribly. After graduating early at 17 he immediately left his parents home to “sow his wild oats”. Thank you for your post!!!
I dated an Asian girl for a couple years. She explained her childhood as you described it above. She is not passionate about anything and is afraid to leave her secure, yet boring engineering job.
ironically, despite the emphasis on music at a young age, most asian parents I know would be pretty upset if their children wanted to major in music and become a professional musician. lol
So unbelievably true. Thank you for this comment. My personal thought upon reading the original article was that I had dated two of the girls created by this type of education. Both were extremely driven, both were impossible to live with; perennially succeeding where others failed, but constantly unhappy and angry with themselves, the first one projected her emotinal state outside (predictable consequences – recurring fights), the second one ate it all in (predictable consequence – depression). Two fabulous individuals that ended up psychological wrecks.
Thanks for sharing!
You rock!
Reading Amy Chua’s article made my skin crawl, and reading yours was like a breath of fresh air. Sure, Chua’s parenting methods got results, but at one hell of a cost. Your parenting methods where, surprise surprise, achievement and happiness are *not* mutually exclusive, are hugely better.
Great post Jean! I totally agree with you, even though I am not a parent yet. The story by Amy Chua is way too common here in Hong Kong, CN. Lucky or not, I am not a by-product of such parenting. I was motivated by myself for much of my education life. Your post remains me of how much I am determined to have my kids raised in the states!
I had immigrant Chinese parents, and only about 1/4 of the families I knew were very strict like this. The rest were achievement-oriented (like their high achieving white counterpart families) but weren’t insane with the desire for performance or deprived their kids of anything like slumber parties or school trips.
1/4 is still a very high rate for this kind of stuff though, which is where the stereotype comes from. But I’d say definitely more than half the Chinese immigrant families out there are well-rounded people.
Some responses, related to your comment, from another thread:-
” Ms. Chua, by your argument, the entire nation of China should be teeming with incredibly successful, well-educated high achievers. News flash: It’s not.
Chinese kids in America are predisposed to be successful (as defined by the standards of our meritocracy — a lousy standard, in my opinion) because their parents were hard-working enough and intelligent enough to be given the privilege to immigrate from asia to the United States. The immigrant population is highly selected. Many immigrants come to the U.S. for graduate school — which automatically puts them in one of the most educated sectors of the population. Others come through sheer dedication, perseverance, and adaptability. However they get here, the Chinese who immigrate here are freaking strong people, and it should be no wonder that they raise very strong kids. The pedestrian Chinese are not given visas, so they stay home in China, and raise normal Chinese kids. “”
“” Rather than “Why Chinese Mothers are Superior”, it should read “Why Overachieving Overseas Chinese Mothers with Elite Jobs and a lot of Face to Save are Superior”. If you’ve spent any time in China at all, you’ll find that a proper sampling of the population includes its fair share of slacker families and happy-go-lucky moms. Amy Chua would not be a typical mother if you place her in China. .. “”
“” In China the government has followed a similar kind of approach in terms of their children’s education, but the result is hyper-sensitive, over-qualified, hubristic, fragile young people who do the wrong major in college, and never pick up a violin or piano after leaving home. (Hyperbole alert.)
It’s a generalization I know but it’s commonly held in China, and the evidence is there in the workplace. As a result the emphasis within China’s educational establishment is moving towards reducing homework, engaging the students, shortening school hours/days, encouraging rather than punishing etc.
The reaction from Chinese parents to the PISA study is also notable. This study showed Shanghai students beating the whole world at mathematics and all-round general academics. Sounds great. But parents in Shanghai were doubtful about the value of the win.
Admittedly, some of the parent’s comments were probably cherry picked for contrariness by overseas TV/newspapers (otherwise there is no story). But the push-back was seen in the Chinese media as well, and the general sense on the ground is that this success-or-else approach is no longer welcome. “”
“” Comments on Chua’s book promotion aside (and yes, we’d be amiss not to think about the economic context of the WSJ article)–I don’t read this as a piece about Chinese moms. I read this as a piece about the lack of interest in education among the dominant American culture. A few years ago, I had my shoulder repaired. When I was in PT, I was absolutely shocked at the number of kids, as young as 8, who were rehabbing from knee repairs (ACL surgery), ankle injuries, elbows, you name it. It’s not that Americans aren’t interested in promoting excellence, it’s that Americans think education is effete, intellectual, snobbish, all of that. If you want to hear an Anglo-European parent berating a child for being less than perfect, don’t go to a piano recital; go to a Little League ball game.
Chinese Moms wouldn’t be perceived as a threat if Americans valued education as much as they valued sports and other activities. There are certainly better educational solutions than pressuring your child into one-sided academic excellence. Just as certainly, a certain amount of pressure is necessary to keep kids from drifting into uncritical mediocrity. But that isn’t the issue here–the real issue is that people in the dominant culture feel threatened by people who think that education as such is important, even if the “tiger Mom” approach to education is inadequate. Decide that education is important, and you’re in a position to have a discussion about what methods are effective. “”
“My parents were certainly influenced by Chinese traditions, but they thankfully they did not socialize with that many Asian families”. Yes, isn’t it awful to socialize with Asian families? Oh, wait, I don’t agree with that. My kids are half Chinese. You might find this hard to accept, but my wife and I actually think there are fantastic benefits to socializing with families from many cultures, including those that are Asian. Mind you, we’re a Canadian family and have never really understood the divisive American mindset.
I apologize, as I didn’t mean to imply that socializing with all Asian families was negative. But I saw so much of families comparing each other’s children, trying to best each other with their accomplishments and grades. I am just thankful that because my parents were relatively private people, I was spared much of that comparison and criticism. What I said was a generalization of gossipy Asian mothers who continually enforce this cycle of forcing their kids to play piano, enter math competitions, etc.
Yes, Isn’t it ironic that although most Americans couldn’t name the capital city of Canada, most Canadians are largely ignorant of American culture. Perhaps a sparsely populated, and mostly unremarkable country can feel better about itself by manufacturing negative stereotypes about its neighbor. I’m not aware of any divisive mindset in the United States, at least not to any greater degree than you would find anywhere else, Canada included.
I totally agree with your statement about Asian parents’ attitude towards music. What’s the point of forcing your child to play the piano/violin/cello/etc for thousands of hours (against the child’s will in many cases) if in the end you will tell him to go to Med/Law school?
It’s a shame that every time I look at a piano, I feel nothing but resentment. Don’t get me wrong. I do understand that my parents cared and did what they thought was the best for me, but unfortunately their methods were not the best.
A wise and heartfelt perspective – refreshingly honest and candid, too. thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think that proper parenting – whatever your ethnicity – means striking the balance between providing structure and discipline, nurturing ambition, and teaching the value of hard work while still allowing for freedom of expression and the gift of trying and failing at something you decide you want for yourself. This is of course easier to talk about in theory for many people, and I think that many of the hard charging Asian parents arendoing the best they know how to do as they have been taught. That’s why sharing an informed perspective like yours is so important.
Excellent thoughts. Unfortunately, putting children under excessive academic pressure seems to be the trend here in India as well.
my son is suffering with rheumatoid arthritis but is still shouted at for his apparent “failures”. i want him to be homeschooled because of his continuous ill health but the value of a piece of paper/school certificate is apparently of more importance than his health, happiness and peace of mind
Great writeup; I’ve too read the other article and I thought it was rubbish. There are many measures of success, and having a high pay check and “prestigious” job title are certainly not the only metrics. The whole thing seems to me like robbing their own children of proper childhood for the sake of menial accomplishments. It is sad that so many asians prioritize material wealth over personal happiness as measurements of success. There is so much more to life then 1-upping your neighbors. This is USA; you come here for better life where you dont have to work like a dog just get by day to day. These parents should learn how to enjoy their own lives and let their kids enjoy theirs. Not saying that academic oversight should be completely abandoned, but as with everything else in life, everything should be done in moderation.
I was really moved by Ms Chua’s article. I sent it to my wife. Our son plays piano and should play the dancing donkey, but instead he is having sleepovers.. I don’t know how much you can do to raise a kid… What I have seen is:
Rags to riches happens by self motivation, not parental motivation.
Doctors beget Doctors.
Unfortunately, engineers don’t beget Doctors…
But the best quote I have is from a CBA (is that a term?) I worked with.
He said: “If you can’t be an artist, be a patron”.
Tell Google to buy wikiSPEEDia.org
blah blah blah i married a white boy.
great, another ABC marrying a white guy.
ever think about the kids you are going to create will be even more confused than ABCs? they won’t know what race or group they belong to.
but the ABCs don’t fit in with the white crowd either unless they are totally white-washed.
ABCs are not real Chinese, they are nothing like Chinese in China.
ABC’s like yourself are a disgrace to real Chinese.. I mean what does a European think when he sees you? oh Chinese, but you can’t even read or write in “your own language” Chinese, by growing up in America you have lost your heritage and 2000 years of culture. don’t you feel like a disgrace?
Hello,
I can in fact speak Chinese fluently, as my parents only spoke Chinese to me growing up. At my best, I could read newspaper articles. I wouldn’t claim to be as “chinese” as someone from China, but it is certainly part of my heritage, and I don’t think that I am disgracing at all.
i dont think u understand the collective rejection asian men feel when they see a defector. is it natural selection that makes u think that having a white baby-daddy will give ur child better chances in life? ive met plenty of asian women who only date white boys for no other reason than because they are white. they can be trailer trash. as long as they are white. it’s pathetic. whats with the disdain for asian men? little penis? dorky? embarrassed of ur own kind?
sad that ur kid will also hate his/her asian side. please change ur last name. u are no longer chinese.
Kevvy and monkey king both made me feel very dirty. White people certainly do NOT look down on Chinese people who intermarry – the very concept is both revolting and mystifying. In fact, white people who think about their own race in this manner are White Supremists. Nazis were born on this thinking.
But I doubt that either Kevvy or monkey king will listen, since this was not written by someone of the “Superior” race.
I don’t feel this way because I think we are superior, I’m just disgusted at how some asian girls throw themselves at white guys. Completely shunning their own kind. As if they are so much better. Even in my own experiences dating outside my race I did not talk bad about asian women. I’m much happier being with a chinese woman. I don’t have to act more americanized. Yes I eat fish w/ their heads still attached. So does my wife. But u must think that’s disgusting and wouldn’t dare to open a jar of kimchi in front of ur white husband.
I see so many young asian girls w/ old ugly white men or geeky white guys who had no luck in romance until they found easy game with u.
U might think u are “upgrading” but u are not. Good luck to u and trying to sleep ur way to the american dream
Too Little: i’m an American born to Chinese parents, and those two make me feel very dirty, too.
m0nkey k1ng and kevvy: i’m an ABC. my Chinese speaking isn’t fluent and i love American football, but i’ve practiced Chinese martials arts and archery (which is more than 99% of “real” Chinese can claim). i comfortably straddle American and Chinese cultures — i take what i like from both.
that said, your notion of racial purity is unfortunate. you forget that the “Han” ethnicity emerged over millennia of mixing among the local peoples. the mixing of Han with other people and cultures continues today across the globe, and it’s nothing to be ashamed of. i know examples of Caucasian men who have married Chinese women, and who have done outstanding work in preserving Chinese culture (more than many “real” Chinese). for you to deny them on the basis of genetics is foolish.
I apologize. My comments are not to make u feel dirty. And I don’t think being with white ppl is a disgrace. What I see is a disgrace is how some chinese women unconditionally throw themselves at white men. Perpetuating the stereotype that asian women are willing sex toys for them. I would not be human if I did not feel any emotional attachment to ppl of my own kind degrading themselves in this manner. What if all of the sudden 8 out of 10 chinese men refused to date chinese women, how would that make u feel? No one likes to admit it because it makes them seem racist. But its not a matter of racial superiority, its a matter of dignity.
Kevvy, look up “Nice Guy Syndrome.” Sounds like you.
No Asian woman owes you anything.
I am appalled at your words. ABC’s who grow up in America should be American, not ‘real’ Chinese. People are defined by the society they grow up in, not where their ancestors lived.
I would consider myself a loser if I raise my kids to be more Chinese than American.
U are either ignorant or live in a place where asians are well accepted. If u ventured outside of ur bubble u would realize that “real” americans don’t consider u american. Even if u are 5th generation abc. u are still an immigrant chink.
F*ck you both, kevvy and m0key k1ng, from an unconfused and generally contented halfie. I can read and write multiple languages. And I don’t give a rat’s ass what Europeans or Asians, categorically speaking, think of me. A person needs to earn my respect before I can care what they think.
Ever wonder why Asian women won’t date you? Or any women, for that matter? Look at yourself. Blaming everyone else for your lack of success in romance. Condemning women for making their own decisions on who to date, instead of narrow-mindedly using race as the deciding factor. No woman wants to be mere breeding stock for her race, but you seem to think that’s our role, which is just idiotically medieval of you. It’s your own behavior that is pathetic and embarrassing, and incredibly unattractive.
I’ve dated individuals of several different ethnicities, including Asian, White and half of each. But I would NEVER date someone like you. You’re the disgrace.
i wouldn’t expect a halfie to feel an ounce of pride for their genetic make up. so therefore u cannot engage in this coversation.
I realize that my response was a cop-out. i didn’t want to take the time to explain to someone who is half and would not understand how it feels to be racially betrayed (you do not belong to a tribe, so to speak).
but, i realize there are others reading this so let me respond.
first off, i used to be one of these defectors. i dated only white girls. i dont need to brag about it like others here. “my husband is also caucasian” who gives a shit? the difference is when i meet my white girlfriend’s parents, its not the same as when u meet your white boyfriends parents. there is a strong sense of rejection and i’ve had multiple experiences of this.
i came to my senses and married a chinese woman. my wife has chinese friends who date only white guys. they sadly eat rice in a dark corner by themselves. i have a black friend who married an asian woman and wont allow her to cook her ethnic food when he’s home. because it smells.
i can’t explain why i feel so much anger and betrayal when i see so many chinese women go w/ white guys. i just feel it. i honestly wish i didnt. im willing to bet most asian guys feel it too. whether they admit it or not. ask a white guy how he feels about a white woman with a black guy. thats exactly how we feel when we see chinese women w/ a white guy.
well put kevvy!
down with betrayers!! every time i see a chinese woman w/ a white guy i always say to them 叛国贼！！disgrace!
luckily the white guys 没有眼光 and only select the ugly chinese, so they can have them all they want.
as for you interracial couples out there, before being selfish and having kids, think long and hard about by creating them you are forsaking them. they will grow up wondering what race they belong with, they won’t fit in w/ the Chinese, and with the white people they will prolly hide the fact they are half chinese
Thanks m0nkey but I’m done here. I came to read jean’s point of view (from a chinese engineer) only to find that she is no longer chinese. Sorry for going on a tangent. If there is a silverlining, it is that asians are being accepted into american society. Albeit through our vaginas.
Since you are “real Chinese” I’m going to presume you are good at math. Consider the set of integers. Without loss of generality, America occupies the positive part of the number line, while the Chinese diaspora lies on the negative part. Then ABC’s and mixed people are at 0.
People like us are not a disgrce; rather our existence is to be celebrated. We are the international people, standing between two cultures. The Hapa is a symbol for the future.
U are an innocent product of jungle love.
Hear hear! I had much the same reaction to Amy Chua’s article as you did. Thanks for putting it so articulately. Your point about the lack of drive is interesting; so it’s not just me! I’m having difficulty finding something I love.
I would add a couple points:
- As you said, children are different, so one method of parenting may be effective and beneficial for one child, but not for another. I personally found my Chinese mother overly critical and I believe that it’s one reason for my rather low self-confidence.
- I find it interesting that Chua has a strange dichotomy of Chinese vs. Western, and doesn’t really seem to question where these two loosely categorized ways of thinking come from. I like to blame Confucius for the Asian mind-set, but it’s just a theory.
- Compared to Asian countries, I think the U.S. and other countries excel at encouraging and nurturing creativity. This is just my opinion though. There are certainly plenty of creative people in Asia, but I think there could have been more.
After spending nearly one year here in Hangzhou, I really must agree with you. And I like to add, that these “chinese-mothered” children beside not knowing what things they like to do for work or in their free time, also in other aspects of their life. Doing these daily decisions of everyones life is a quite tough thing, but these children who only know how to get good grades, never know how to care about their daily life. I mean something as simple as paying your bills, having friends, love/sex, knowing your way around in the town where you spent so many years. They are like machines. And I also know from some chinese friends that after they are finished studying with their best grade approach, they start to think “Well, who am I actually? What should I do with the other 45 years until I retire?”. These are actually quite basic questions that you should answer somewhere between maybe 10 and 25. Not when you are 30.
Another thing they lose is this life you have as a 15 years old or a 20 years old. They will be never 20 years old again. And they just missed it, because they spent all this time studying.
I really feel disgusted when I read this article from this chinese mother. As far as I can understand it, they only care about the results they can brag about to other parents. The children don’t matter to them, only that they themself are “good” parents is important.
Being an Asian I truly agree with you.
Dear Jean.
Thank you for your insightful blogtique on asian mothers. Just to offer some additional perspective here are some thoughts that came to mind:
Admittingly some asian parents do push hard on their children, but some do it with good reason. There are some parents who simply did not have an easy life growing up, and do not want the same for their children. They struggled in their lives, and even after telling their children of their struggles, our generation simply ignore what they have to say. For many in our generation, their lives of yesterday simply has no bearing on our very important lives we experience today.
Your blogtique is interesting in that its a bit of a curiosity that this concerns you at all. If you look at our generation, we are already very different from that of our parents. Chances of us following suit is practically next to nil. Lets face it, in another generation or two, our Chinese New Years Dinner will most likely comprise of french fries and other assortments of fast food. The simple truth is that there are not many within our own generation willing to learn, carry on, and appreciate some of the better aspects of our culture. That alone should be enough to lay to rest whether it matters if asian moms are superior or not, because the truth is there won’t be any like them in the future.
As a final note, if a mom cares, be it she’s hard like a stereotypical asian mom or she is easy going, the fact that she cares at all and does her best to show it, is what matters most.
I was expecting response for Amy Chua’s article. Your points are valid. On top , there is only one lonely place. So child and parents can be frustrated if they are not at number one.
Hi Jean,
As a Chinese immigrants, I agree that “narrow-minded formula for success” is not the only way to be success, but it’s one of the most certain way to be success.
The failure rate is higher if people not follow this formula, on the other hand, the formula is not made by the Chinese. It’s the educational/social system keep market this “formula”.
I agree Jean, but I think there is something even more disturbing going on in Amy’s parenting. Besides the total lack of spiritual and philosophical development found wanting in this style of parenting there is also what I can only classify as outright child abuse. My blog post on the WSJ piece: http://www.fidei.org/2011/01/terrible-parenting.html
I greatly appreciated this post, even though I’m neither an American nor an ABC, but this rings true. I’ve had many associates who stoically has been working through their lives striving for success rather than fulfillment, I can’t help but feel sorry for what they are missing out on in life. And I’ve always wondered about their motives.
Jean – I came across your article on HackerNews and although I rarely comment, I felt compelled to voice my opinion on this specific topic. I want to preface my comment by saying that obviously everyone is entitled to her own opinion, and if I have misread your post in any way please feel free to correct me, but it saddens me to think that someone who grew up in a “Chinese” family and who has already achieved so much in life would be so critical of the “Chinese” method of parenting.
Our backgrounds are actually quite similar (24 years old, raised by first-generation Chinese parents and studied a technical degree at an Ivy league university), although my childhood could probably also be characterized as more “stereotypically Chinese” than yours: I started taking SAT prep back when I was in middle school, played the piano, attended regional and national math competitions, and my parents DID socialize frequently with others in the Chinese community, constantly reminding me that so-and-so did better than me in a certain class, so why couldn’t I.
Looking back now, it is apparent to me that, relative to most kids raised by Western parents, my formative years were indeed quite tough (and downright depressing at times). However, I truly believe that if it weren’t for the tough parenting that I received, there would be NO way that I could be in the position that I am in today – both in terms of “success” (which is broadly subjective) and “happiness” (which is much less up to public debate).
I think the fundamental problem many have with the way Amy Chua’s article is written is that she comes off as implying there are no other good / better ways of raising a child to be “successful” in life. I have a diverse set of friends from various backgrounds who, by many metrics, would be considered “happy” and “successful” and it is obvious to me that the “Chinese mother” is not the only type of mother who can raise a happy and successful kid. That being said, I think that having a Chinese mother, at least in my case, provided a competitive advantage in terms of having the best possible CHANCE of success, and indirectly, the best possible chance of happiness – Judging by your post-high school experience, I am inclined to believe that it was true for your case as well.
As you mention, having “Chinese” parents does force you in some ways to take on a relatively “narrow” profile – someone who typically gets decent grades but is more likely to pursue a technical degree instead of arts; someone with a strong academic record but may not necessarily have as much experience in other competitive arenas, such as athletics. That being said, what’s so bad about that? I’m sure that there are plenty of parents (and former children) who would love to have that background. Furthermore, I have Chinese friends who probably had stricter parents than I had, yet pursued degrees in music, dance, and art. I personally studied engineering in college but love music and dabble in music production in my spare time. And although my athletic resume is pathetic, you would be hard-pressed to find someone who is more fanatical about basketball and who takes competition more seriously. “Chinese parents” are undoubtedly more restrictive than “Western parents” but I don’t think either type of parent loves their kids less than the other; when their children display natural talent and affinity for specific things that are not detrimental to their long-term growth, I find it very hard to believe that most “Chinese parents” would completely disallow them from pursuing those interests (although “Chinese parents” are probably more likely to take a conservative approach).
In my opinion, the primary issue, which you hit on the head, is the lack of “self-confidence” that may arise from years of “Chinese parenting.” Kids with “Chinese mothers” are often trained to only heed direction for the first 17-18 years of their life, and as a result once they are released into the “free world” of college make uninhibited and potentially destructive decisions. Having been “controlled” by their parents all their lives through high school, many of these kids consequently lack “drive” and “social skills” later in life when they are given much less direction and have to think on their own.
It is true that, without my parents’ guidance, I spent most of freshman year in college “making bad decisions,” doing many of the things that a stereotypical college freshman would do, and I suppose this is reason enough to believe that having a “Chinese mother” as a child was a detriment to my future well-being. However, once I came to the realization that my future was in my own hands, I relied on the work ethic that my parents helped me develop over 17 years to pull my grades up, consciously explore areas of interest, and ultimately secure a job that I found both interesting and challenging. The risks I have taken up until today could be characterized as mild (especially by most in the HackerNews community), but that does not mean that I am not willing to take risks – one of the biggest reasons why I read all these tech blogs (including yours) so regularly is because I wish to one day also leave my cushy corporate job to pursue something more adventurous and potentially more rewarding. Am I sometimes overcome with a feeling of complacency? Absolutely! That being said, I also lead a relatively stable and fulfilling life, and don’t intend to take big risks unless I feel I am sufficiently prepared to do so. And more importantly, I don’t think I can attribute any inaction on my part to poor direction on my parents’ part.
I did not intend this comment to be an assault on your post (and if it comes off that way then apologies in advance for my poor writing skills), merely a counter to your counter. One’s perspective on life will no doubt be “outcome-specific,” in the sense that his or her personal experiences will inevitably generate a bias towards specific principles and philosophies. Based on my own personal experiences, I am truly glad that WSJ published Amy Chua’s article, not because I 100% agree with what she wrote, but because I believe that “Chinese parents” can often have a very positive effect on their children’s lives, and that it is worthwhile for the broader community to be more aware of it. I for one am appreciative of everything that my parents have done for me, and I hope that everyone else is able to gain a greater understanding and appreciation for the personal hardships and sacrifices that most “Chinese parents” undertake for their kids in order to prepare them for a “successful” life.
Hi Ran,
Thanks for the comment. It’s always interesting to hear another perspective. To be clear, while my parents are technically Chinese, they were not like Amy Chua. I think they practice “Chinese parenting” to a very mild degree. They signed me up for piano lessons when I begged them for them, my mom taught us Chinese during the summers when I was little, and math homework everyday, but my recollection of all these things were that I wanted to do them. Once I reached middle school, they were completely hands-off about my education. No SAT prep courses, no private tutors, I stopped playing piano only to voluntarily start up lessons a few months later because I missed it. Of course my own perspective is outcome-based because I personally experienced a happy childhood and adulthood without all the craziness that Amy Chua describes. I think in a way, my parents were very hands-off because they knew I would take care of school. Had I been more troublesome and needed more of a push (and had they been more forceful with me) I would probably be more appreciative of that style of parenting. And who knows what I’ll think once I have children of my own =)
Jean
Doubtlessly there are many people whom we would consider wildly successful that were raised along this style of parent-child interaction. This very fact is also the reason that so many other families emulate the approach. But the approach is known to backfire, and the aftermath is only beginning to be documented in the psychological literature. Take for instance this assessment:
“The argument that these kids do well -because- of their parenting ignores how many Chinese kids have horrifically broken relationships with their parents. It also ignores how many Chinese kids sink into a pattern of low self-esteem and angry rebellion, dropping out of college as freshmen, getting hooked on drugs, getting involved in asian gangs, whatever. Those kids exist, and are actually quite numerous — you just never see them, because the parents do a very impressive job of hushing it up.”
(From an open letter posted in the WSJ comments, by Robert Lee; he is a professor at the University of Colorado, Dept. of Medicine).
So, the analysis can’t be done on purely an individual basis. The question for society is: is it responsible if some families—or to contemplate the corner case, if all families—engage in certain kinds of parenting, if it is known that some people will be harmed by it?
I would also offer a more philosophical critique: the notion of motivating our children through aggression and pressure instead of curiosity, exploration, cultivation—this seems so counter to the values of leadership, scholarship, and service that the top universities champion for in the first place. How should one judge this hypocrisy?
Should not the ends be justified by the means?
Awesome commentary. I too read Chua’s article and found it somewhat too self-congratulatory but also could identify with what she was saying having “Asian” parents myself. My childhood had many similarities to both Chua’s article as well as your commentary. I must say I whole heartedly agree with what you are saying here. It took a long time for me to find myself and it wasn’t until my final year in undergrad that I felt like I was on my own from a mental standpoint and could stand-up to whatever ideology my parents thought was right for me. Fortunately my “social skills and initiative” led me in the right direction. I’m not a Googler or a brain surgeon … and I don’t work at some big NY law firm … but I’m happy to be doing what I love and being a dorky creative. I wouldn’t want it any other way. Thanks for the post.
Thank you for so elegantly putting in words what I feel. I too spent my college years torn between what my parents want/expect and what I want/need to live a happy (by my definition) life. After two corporate careers in Fortune 50, bought my folks a home (obligatory bragging rights for them), I’m now happily running my own startup.
I think you have it right here, Jean. I completely agree with your assessment in that hard work and discipline can only carry you so far, but it is having a strategy and direction that matters most. If those are wrong, the hard work only ends up getting you in the wrong direction. As for the Chua article, after reading it, I felt it portrayed her as, or she is in fact, clinically insane.
oops, I meant to say ‘wrong place faster’
Pingback: Asian Parenting: a contentious issue | Ryo Chiba blog
Hi Jean,
Of course I remember you! I needed some moving boxes and you were happy to oblige. Congratulations on the wedding!
I too find it sad that too many people work in fields they don’t love, but I don’t believe that it’s a natural condition of the Asian upbringing. I’ve talked to any number of folks without the hothouse conditioning who don’t love their work. I’ve come to the conclusion that those who don’t love their work are normal, and it’s the passionate folks who are rare. Maybe it doesn’t seem so rare to you if you’ve worked at Google (which does have a tendency to hire people in much need of social skills however!). Even at Google, though, at my exit interview I still had my HR Business partner ask me why I didn’t choose to “stay and coast.” I’ve never coasted in my life and have no intention of doing so after “retirement”, was my response.
Here’s the deal: even though you say that Asian parents would be upset if their children chose to major in music, a large portion of today’s professional classical musicians are Asian! What do you think of that?! I don’t think it’s a coincidence.
I definitely disagree with you that the lack of drive among ABCs comes from the Asian upbringing. I meet plenty of non-Asians with a shortage of drive as well. The burning desire to create something, make something, or do something is not something that’s bred into you, nor can it be beaten out of you with something as simple as upbringing. Certainly, you’re at a startup now, and I don’t see you give your parents any credit for that! Fair’s fair, right?
I do agree that parents criticizing your appearance is something really stupid. You can’t help your appearance, and I don’t think there’s much to be gotten from the criticism. Maybe because I come from a family of boys, there was definitely nothing in my upbringing that brought that to the forefront. And as a studious nerd, I found out at grade 7 that I wasn’t one of the cool kids and would never be one of them. I’m OK with that. But that was in Asia, where academic achievement was not belittled. Maybe if I’d grown up in a social-status conscious American high school I would be resentful of my nerd status, and therefore have a grudge against my parents for making me do all that after-school work.
Finally, I don’t think that the silicon valley criticism of “being a normal worker at a normal corporation” is warranted. These people are by the standards of greater society incredibly successful. Keep in mind that while “most men live lives of quiet desperation”, those “normal engineers” live much less desperate lives than most. And I say this as someone who advocates working at startups and have worked for pre-public companies his entire career, not always to great monetary reward but for the satisfaction of making a difference. Keep in mind that the shortage of engineers means that many bright people get sucked into the field who don’t necessarily love the work, but enjoy the financial rewards that come with it. I think that’s OK. Those people won’t be found at startups, but they can function (and even thrive) at the many large corporations found all over the valley. To each his own.
Hi Piaw,
I definitely don’t mean to say that all Asian-Americans of my generations lack drive–many are very ambitious and well-balanced. But growing up as an ABC, I have seen many peers lose their way and are unmotivated. About the classical musicians, I’d be curious to know how many are ABCs. I completely agree that it’s not just Asian-Americans for which a majority are not ambitious and passionate about their work, but in many cases in my own life (family and friends), I have seen peers crumble under the pressure. They are seen as “failures” when they don’t get into med school or take the path that is expected of them. I attribute my working at a startup partly to my own personality (probably mostly genetics from my parents) as well as my parents, who though seemed wary of my risk-taking, I know they are happy that I am pursuing something I believe in. Anyways, a lot of this is just hearing what everyone’s perspective is, and I just wanted to get my thoughts out there as well.
Bingo.
I read Amy Chua’s article and was a little scared for the children. It seemed enormous pressure was being put on them. Nonetheless, I believe that westerners are way to lax with theirs.
I really enjoyed reading this and I thought it was beautifully written.
I am the (oldest) child of two first-generation Chinese immigrants and, like you, I was fortunate that my parents did not adhere too strongly to stereotypes or rather, to tradition. I’ve had a few chances to visit China, and this is exactly how parents treat their kids over there. But in China, as you probably know, your acceptance into colleges is (unfortunately) solely based on your test scores, so this is expected. I guess some Asian parents haven’t realized that things are different in America.
I cannot agree more with your statements about social deficiencies and lack of initiative. That is definitely something I struggled with when I first entered colleges and it certainly resulted from an overemphasis on studying. It was something that was not highly valued by my parents at the time. Or perhaps they did think it was important, but thought social skills would develop naturally at school or something, and that their parental energy should be better spent on encouraging us to study. (which is much easier too) Thus, while other young children were forming social instincts that they would carry for the rest of their life, I was learning square roots. It makes a world of difference.
I’m actually really glad that that woman wrote the original article because now the issue can finally be brought to light and we can all have a good discussion about it. Both sides have something to learn from each other.
The American style of parenting is not perfect either, and in fact the author of the original article used some of its flaws to make her parenting approach appear humane. There is a balance to be struck between giving your kids freedom and making them do things, and it’s a hard balance to find. I appreciate how my parents let me discover and decide what I loved, and then encouraged me to work hard at it. They limited my video game time, certainly. They constantly checked on me and criticized me when I was wasting time or being lazy. (they never called me garbage, though they did on occasion suggest that I was on the track to becoming garbage). Yet they were fine with me pursuing whatever I liked, as long as I was doing something meaningful. I think that was nice.
Good post. If you look on at this question on Quora (http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal?q=amy+chua) the author actually claims to have a more nuanced argument than what appeared in the WSJ
Hi Andy,
Yeah I didn’t see that until afterwards. I’m glad to see she’s not advocating the type of parenting from the WSJ article.
Jean
Lovely piece, Jean. Chua’s “article” is an excerpt from her upcoming book, Battle Cry of the Tiger Mother. It would be interesting to see if the rest of the book also gives more perspective to her argument on parenting compared to the extremity of the excerpt posted in WSJ.
Both authors fail to mention the power of the chinese feather duster.
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v66/185/90/227200473/n227200473_228149_3593.jpg
Although I can’t relate to any of the experiences described personally, I do have a friend (non-Asian, and we live in Europe) who seems to be growing further and further apart from her parents due to the way they push her towards succes.
you are lucky~almost of chinese parents doesnt care about what’s the purpose of their life that definetely would be affecting the way to educate the kids.
Oh please, I’m a Korean American male who was raised by first generation Korean parents on the East Coast. My dad was an engineer and my mother was a former artist. They were about as strict as any other white parent growing up and I never had straight A’s. I dropped out of high school, got my GED, did a stint in community college for two years and am currently pursuing an anthropology degree at a Tier 1 college. (Note, not pursing a law or medical degree.) My parents respected my wishes when I told them that I wanted to drop out of high school because I felt school wasn’t right for me. Sure, they opposed it at first but in the end they decided my happiness was the most important thing.
Not all Asian parents are the stereotypical, “Why you get B+?” crowd. I’m sure there are parents of all colors who push their kids to excel in school, perhaps with a little more force than necessary. I’m sick of people thinking Asians are the ones who destroy curves in college, play the piano or violin at a professional level, or are submissive. People like you, believe it or not, help to perpetuate this stereotype by spewing racist propaganda such as: “I truly believe that many in my generation of ABCs (American born Chinese) lack drive–with parents that watch them do their homework and write their college application essays, they never had to make any hard decisions for themselves. ” Do you have documented proof for this? This as generic a statement as saying, “I’m sick of Black parents who don’t take care of their kids.” I know plenty of fellow Asian American students who worked very hard in high school on their own without outside help. If they went to college, which they did, it wasn’t due to their helicopter parents.
Look at yourself, you want your children to break free of stereotypes but you are one yourself. The typical Asian female who graduated from an Ivy school and married a white male. Irony at it’s finest.
Pingback: 为什么说华裔教育方式并无优势 « 每日IT新闻，最新IT资讯，聚合多站点消息，保证你与世
Jean, from one abc to another, I agree. It’s like what’s-his-name says in *Karate Kid*: balance.
I had a Chua mother who drove me nuts. I think I survived, but just barely. We all deserve better.
I completely agree. Especially with this part:
” truly believe that many in my generation of ABCs (American born Chinese) lack drive–with parents that watch them do their homework and write their college application essays, they never had to make any hard decisions for themselves. Many are too cautious to take big risks, and instead find themselves stuck in unsatisfying jobs. While trying to give them an academic advantage, these parents are really stunting their personal and social development. Good grades, hard work and discipline can get you far in life, but it that’s all you have and you lack social skills and initiative, you are sorely limited in what you can do.”
Well written article. And I’m glad someone feels the same about stubborn asian parenting.
Just wanted to say thanks for your post.
Your comments on finding something you love and following through it for long term success and happiness (That sounds so Chinese… I might as well add something about money too) are so true.
Being half Chinese/English, I’ve had English and Chinese friends who’ve had a far more strict up bringing than my own. I was really lucky in many ways and wonder what it would have been like during college/uni I hadn’t been pursuaded into working in a library/restaurant. However there’s no point on dwelling on the past and to just look at the positives.
I’ve been fortunate enough like yourself to have been part of a successful web company and hope to (like yourself) move to a start up or other web company in the future. Maybe if it wasn’t for working in those places it’s helped remind me to push myself and never let my skills dwindle and I wouldn’t now love what I do as much as I do.
Sadly when I look back at school, I think future generations (regardless of nationality) will be so lucky with the way that we can learn through the Internet, screencasts, forums, irc, msn etc…
That’s probably how our parents looked back on their lives too and maybe why they are the way they are. Rather than looking at things in black and white, that to look at them in shades of grey can teach us all something.
No one is perfect, it’s just a case of us all learning to be the best we can be.
Sometimes it isn’t easy being half Chinese ;(
I just read both this article, and the original wsj one and a few things sprang to mind.
By way of a little context, I grew up in Chinatown in New York and so most of my friends were Chinese and were the children of first generation immigrant families.
I witnessed first hand the stereotypical type of parenting described by Ms. Chua’s article. My friends were rarely allowed to play after school or engage in any social activity that didn’t involve academics or look good on a transcript. On the rare occasion that friends were allowed over they constantly yelled and demeaned them as fat or lazy or stupid. (I guess they figured it was ok since I didn’t speak Cantonese)
And now that we’re all in our late 20′s I can say without exception that they are all profoundly unhappy adults. Every single one is doctor, lawyer, engineer, or other white collar professional and extremely miserable. They never, ever admit this to their parents, and only to others if they’re considerably drunk. The female friends I grew up with are even worse than my male friends. Most, if not all of them have serious body image issues from being called fat and/or lazy their entire childhoods.
The worst part is, if you ask any single one of them what their true passion in life is, what they would do if they could pick any job in the world, they couldn’t tell you. They have no idea what they’re truly interested in because it’s always been considered completely irrelevant. And it’s sad because are some of the nicest, smartest people I grew up with.
Now I do agree with some aspects of Ms. Chua’s piece. Steotypically western parents do have a tendency to treat their kids like glass and the culture of whiny, spoiled, self entitled brats we have here in the US is legendary. But I think she represents one extreme end of the parenting spectrum, and the people she’s deriding the other. There is a sane middle ground where you can push your children toward achieving academic/material excellence while realizing that bragging about your kid’s Ivy league education and big paycheck are far from the most important things in life.
I have my doubts as to whether Amy Chua’s daughters are really prepared for the “real world”.
Sure, they might be academically brilliant and fantastic musicians, but how are they going to deal with going out into society without a controlling mother making all the decisions for them? Will they really be able to take control of their own lives? Are they really as confident and self-assured as she seems to think they are, or are they just not comfortable with showing her when what she does or says to them hurts? Will they really be able to cope with joining the workforce and having to collaborate with other people (especially those who aren’t as academically-oriented as them)?
After all, I believe that once you leave school and enter society, it becomes EQ that really counts, not IQ.
Thank you for your positive thought.
I too was raise to only study, I Noe realize as a grandmother to let the kids learn in their study. When I was raising my own, home schooling in early year takes a lot of creative way to impart knowledge. Since we moved a lot because our line of work. It is hard to push for one method. Thank God, the kids did their best. I hope and pray that they will be able to function in this high demanding world, but also enjoy freedom of choice.
Like the perspective of the writer mentioned at the end of the story about raising her own child differently. I was educated in South Asia, and while not forced by parents, I figured at an early age that getting good grades made my parents happy. I regret that instead of things that interested me, i focused totally on studies. After moving to the US, I did realize only after 4+ years of college that nothing of value gets taught in US colleges. I focused on learning on my own since then and have been able to have successful career because of that. I’ll never compel my son to see grades as the measure of academic success, rather he will be free to study whatever that interests him, not what an failed education system tells him to.
Thanks for your thoughtful (and SANE) perspective. I will be reading your blog henceforth.
I disagree. First generation immigrant parents are uniquely qualified to guide their children to success because they beat significant odds to get here. The “feel good” pathway you have described may have once been viable in a world containing vast information gradients. Those differentials, having vanished, will leave your children vulnerable to all those other parents smart enough to work their kids hard enough to get the education and the high-paying jobs. Their children may be unhappy because they worked too hard ; yours will merely be unhappy for not having reached their full potential
Very nice post. I read that WSJ article and had it clanking around in my head for a few days… I was countering it with some of the ‘free-range’ parenting styles you read about.
The most valid insight of the article was that some things (ie – violin, number theory, LISP, organic chemistry) are inherently hard and require discipline to get through the ‘rote-learning’ boring parts. The ‘touchy-feely’, “let’s make math interesting” style of parenting/ teaching misses this. There is something to 3 hours of violin vs 45 minutes and 2 hours of TV as a reward…
I am no ‘Chinese Mom’ but see that this style of parenting is best for a kid who has certain proclivities. If they have an impulse towards music it is important for them to push them selves past the drudgery of practicing scales onto real accomplishment.
If the kid hates music then drop it and find something else. But push them enough so that they understand that if they work through the initial tough part some real beauty lies ahead.
I have the similar problem of finding what I truly love. But I wonder this have to do anything with “Asian parenting”. In my case, my parent is practicing the least interference principle, for whatever action I take, they give advice but leave the final decision to me. I would “blame” it to the education system/social norm, as I spent almost my whole life in Hong Kong and the whole education system in Hong Kong have only one goal: training unquestioning workers for big banks.
IMHO, the narrow definition of success in Asian tradition is the root of problem.
Well written. It is very important to be open-minded.
Jean, thanks for a very thoughtful reaction to Amy Chua’s article. I would just add that not all first generation Chinese parents follow the same narrow recipe. My own parents definitely did not. And some of my first generation Chinese friends with teenage kids have reacted with horror to Amy Chua’s article.
Excellent post! Thanks for sharing this first-hand look at “Chinese” parenting – provides an important counterpoint to Amy Chau’s original article.
)
“And ironically, despite the emphasis on music at a young age, most Asian parents I know would be pretty upset if their children wanted to major in music and become a professional musician.” Indeed…my best friend in high school, an Asian girl, was a very talented pianist and passionately wanted to become a professional musician. Her parents forbid it and forced her to go to law school. There’s no question she’s “rich” and “successful” now…but I’m not too sure she’s happy with the choices they made for her.
Like your husband, I was brought up in a “Western” household; encouraged to do well, but not pushed anywhere near the extent that Amy Chua describes. Guess what – I still got good grades, was the top student in most of my academic classes, played the piano (I later became a freelance musician/music teacher) AND participated in school plays and went to sleepovers. A big part of ultimately being “successful”, as you describe, is having a passion for what you do. (I know you’ll be able to find yours sooner or later as well…it’s there.
My reply to Amy Chua, from a music teacher’s perspective, is here: http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/
When you have children, and when they are in grade school, please revisit what you wrote here. Many things are easy said than done. As the first generation of immigrants, I am sure your parents did the best they can within their knowledge and power to help you to be your best — though the best was defined by their knowledge from their background, and shaped by you while you were growing up. When you have children, you are going to do the best you can winthin your knowledge and power to help your children to be their best…and the best is defined by you, and shaped by your children…it probably will not be defined by them entirely. There is always a generation gap, no matter which generation of immigrants you are.
Hello Jean, I’m Jose, coming from Hacker news. I was born in Spain, both my parents studied University, and is interesting to see the people they studied with thought college and later on, but today, when they are almost retired:
The people that were “brilliant”, received honors in college just took an official employment and just lived an ordinary live, not bad. People that struggled to pass the exams were later the elected politicians on charge(over any engineer, doctor or whatever discipline on the state), or travel all the world and have fascinating stories to talk about,made money or made more interesting things on live, or have more fulfilling relationships.
This people were trained to risk, they do what they want, maybe because their parents had surrendered to projecting their desires in them, nobody expects from them and this makes them free. They were trained to fail and honestly don’t care what other people think about them.
On the other hand, the “good boys” and “good girls” had been trained to obey, and they are the best at it and avoiding risks(because they could fail and ruin their reputation of being “smart”).
Good luck with your starup
I don’t see what the debate is. These are 2 sides of a coin – the trick is to find a balance. It is as important to let the child’s self-development follow it’s natural course as it is to give a little bit of guidance without overly imposing a way of life on the child – the trick is to find a balance.
Came across your blog as I have been reading on-line reaction to the WSJ excerpt of Amy Chua’s book. Enjoyed this post and completely agree with your views. I have been relieved to find that many, many people feel the way you and I do about Ms. Chua. I’m a 47-year-old ABC with an MIT undergrad degree and an MD. About the same age as Ms. Chua. Thankfully, I am not the product of “Chinese parents.” I wish she had chosen a different label for this type of parent, something other than “Chinese”! After reading the WSJ excerpt, I wanted to tell everyone I know, “We are NOT all like her!!” It’s shocking that someone brought up in the US and as well-educated as she is would have such narrow-minded views about what’s important in a child’s growth, development, and education. What was the deal with no playdates? Why force the kids to practice piano/violin for hours on end and suck all the enjoyment out of it? I don’t get it. I loved your comment, “ironically, despite the emphasis on music at a young age, most Asian parents I know would be pretty upset if their children wanted to major in music and become a professional musician.” So true!
There’s certainly nothing wrong with wanting one’s kids to strive for excellence. That’s what I want for my own two kids. But I’m not raising them the way Ms. Chua has raised her girls. Her parenting techniques are appalling and abusive at times, and I feel really, really sorry for her kids.
I think this is a great balanced perspective. I enjoyed parts of the original article, as I think that our society, specifically in education, is moving way too much toward effort-based rewards. However, effort counts for something. Also, children need to learn not to be afraid of failure because out of failure comes great learning and self-discovery, sometimes more so than success. I’ve gone through some hard times and made a lot of mistakes in my life and I was met with very harsh criticism from my parents each and every time. But I think I’m now much stronger and wiser because of it.
Coming from an Asian family, I personally experienced the nightmarish hellhole that came with such an experience. Several factors made it much much worse. First They were pretty old in their 40s when they had me and were pretty much set in their ways. And Of course they subscribed to that derivative formula to success. However their lack of comprehension of western society and means of achieving that goal was severely lacking to say the least. As for my childhood, all I can remember is hopping several private/public schools as they experimented. Of course they tried to teach me themselves before preschool but they could not teach. Lots of yelling and hitting if I can recall correctly. I suppose that might be part of the reason I have a learning disability today. Oh did I mention I was born left handed? My hand still stings remembering how much they hit me in order to force me to become right handed. Mmm..might be part of why I have a stuttering problem. At least when I got older they had the sense to leave me alone. But the damage had been done. My mother isn’t as bad I suppose. She was the better of the two at least she’s supportive. However, my dad was and is a uncaring narcissistic asshole. Throwing tantrums whenever I even got a B till I didn’t even bother showing him my grades. Making snide condescending remarks. Illogical and irrational. Yelling at any attempt to reason with him. I was and still trapped in that cage. I was never taught how to live and even now I’m only beginning to repair the damage done if it is possible.
Whoever thinks this style of parenting is even superior is out of their minds. Children are not programmable robots to be shaped into whatever the parents desire. Every child learns differently and should be taught in a matter that suits them. To apply that same rigid formula for success to every child is as stupid as it is inane. Because I was different, I was punished and became scarred for life. I wouldn’t wish this kind of treatment to the worst of my enemies
This is the most heartbreaking story I have ever heard. I respect your strength to share the story and I believe even if you think you are scarred for life, realizing it might actually help you overcome it. Your children will be raised in a more balanced method.
Pingback: 中国母亲更优秀？ | 此心安处是吾乡
I’m Chinese through and through, and all I can say is that Amy has got it thoroughly and utterly wrong. The only thing she is doing is enforcing commitment to her children from a young age and fortunately for her, somehow that particular value of commitment filtered down to her children, and most laughably, what she did might not influenced the final outcome. Observe that the majority of Chinese – not only Chinese, most Asian perhaps – traditional households are raising their children in this manner, yet we are not seeing a wave of super intelligent and skilled Asian coming out to change the world, the end conclusion would suggest that her children and many similar Chinese parents succeeded not because of harsh parenting methods but because of many other contributing factors beyond parenting control.
At the end, all I can say is that the ironic thing is that many other children raised in this manner will fail, and fall to the wayside without being ever noticed, despite all the shouting and hitting you dish out to them.
I am curious to get your opinion on why do you think you didn’t find anything you are truely passinate as your classmate or your husband does? I as a Chinese who grow up in China through college also noticed this on myself and would also love to avoid this on my daughter. Do you think that is because your parents discouraged you or pushed you too much?
Jane
Hi Jane,
I can’t say for sure, but for me getting the highest grade was always the goal. I think when someone is really interested in a particular subject it’s good to encourage them to explore it on their own. I feel like I was more a jack-of-all-trades, where my “curse” was being just good enough at everything to do well. In college I realized I really loved computer science, and it ended up being my major and career, but I still didn’t program for fun as some of my peers did =). Working at a startup has made coding more fun for me and reminded me why I love it so much.
Pingback: Parenting styles | Smash Company
THANK YOU!
Thank you for sharing your insights. As an artist, here is my take on this subject. http://rgphil.com/?s=307
Great article. There are several strengths in the “Asian model” and in the “Western model” as well. We just have to accept that neither is perfect and take the best of each – there is a reason that most of the students that get accepted into top Universities in the UK are from Private Schools (ironically called public schools) and the grammar schools. If you look at how the students in these schools are taught to think, behave and study – it sometimes reminds me of the “Asian model”. Does not mean that they are the happiest but most of them do go on to do well in society.
ABC here, thanks for your response to her article. There’s a huge difference between slackers whose parents provided no structure and parents that ride your ass constantly. Having been thoroughly ass-ridden all of my life, there comes a point when you just become tired of it all and no longer care. Also, after the hoops come away, one has to make choices about one’s own life and choose a path that leads to happiness. A person that has no more hoops to jump through is either profoundly lost or grasps at expensive and possibly useless hoops (law school, grad school, etc).
So were your parents disappointed when you quit Google? Or were they disappointed you didn’t work there before the IPO? Why didn’t you finish college sooner? Or have the foresight to drop out and go to Google straight, get rich and buy a house? (ok i kid)
My parents have the Silicon Valley model of success. Not only must one go to top schools (which I did), they expected me to work at a startup which IPOed (it did), and now it’s “work at Facebook or else you are a loser.” Luckily after having gone through family, they leave out the “you are a loser” part but I can detect that sentiment.
Chinese parents are also huge blamers. Apparently, everything is always your fault. That’s why I’m afraid to take risks and do what it takes to be successful. (being afraid and or nervous is also my fault). I’m not really unafraid to take risks, I’m just worn out. When I was a kid, I had to do a lot of covering up of grades, lying about things, and going where I was not allowed to go. It really bothers me when my parents brag to their friends about how well they raised me and how great I turned out when I don’t really consider them much more than financial and material resources. I don’t think there’s anything sad about that since they admit that providing for children is enough as far as being loving parents.
Suffice to say, I have a hard time imagining feeling sad once they pass on. I’m sure I might, but it seems about as hard to imagine as being gay. The good part is I get a ton of money afterwards. And isn’t that the most important measure of success?
I do love my parents in a way, but it’s more about a filial obligation, personal honor issue, and returning the favor of material care. Personally, I’d rather not feel obligated, but it is what it is. I enjoy them sometimes. But I don’t really care for them being around too much.
I wish Ms. Chua could see how her style of parenting might not be in her best interest.
My parents are not disappointed, they were just a bit concerned about leaving the stability of a job at Google (and health insurance, etc). Mostly they don’t know much about Silicon Valley life, so they idea of working for yourself, or at a company with 6 other people is unimaginable. They are supportive though, and we have a good relationship.
BTW, I should also say that I was lucky that my parents didn’t have as much energy as Ms. Chua to be hard asses.
I am teaching in China at Nanchang University (www.teacherinchina.com) and what you describe (lack of self motivation, initiative, creativity) is something I can confirm from my students.
The Chinese parenting model (dys) functions globally. When I talk to parents, they acknowledge the burden they impose on their children (evening classes in math, weekend classes in you name it, every minute planned with academic exercises), but believe that it is necessary to guarantee a good future for their offspring.
As you and I experience, this view is rather short-sighted, since life goes on after college.
This shortsightedness is the most amazing aspect, since with a long history and copious occasions for human interaction, I would have expected to see a more reasonable approach to child-rearing.
Teaching in China, I can verify first hand that the traditional Chinese parenting model causes a lack of initiative. Recently a computer science graduate, who had little practical experience, complained that I, MBA but a little computer inclined, did not teach her Linux. I am still waiting for her to play a little with the Linux box in her office that is open for play and discovery.
Pingback: Talking about Chinese People in American Newspapers « Carpe Diem in Reverie
This applies to Indians as well i guess,coming from an Indian Family some of this is exactly same …Study and aim to compete in IIT’s or other exams right from 10 years of age (with schools timings starting from 8 AM till 8PM in the night) without even understanding if children is interested or keen towards the subject…Who is to be blamed i feel its definitely Parents who are doing all these to satisfy their pride or ego to proclaim to the world that their child is best….India wake up !!!
I am in deep contemplation of both articles. I have two young boys and finding the balance to raise them is a constant challenge. I came from Asia and married to a caucasian.I have always thought my boys are growing up just fine happy,developing to the best of their abilities.Atleast that was what their school reports says,but after reading all these post, I think I am still not doing my parenting duties well. They will tell me how I have done when they are in their 20′s or 30′s I’m sure.
Jean – I loved your response on Chinese parenting. You seem to truly have a loving and thoughtful belief in raising your future children. Wish parents of all backgrounds would feel the same. I am sure you and your husband will raise your children to be wonderful human beings, content with themselves. God bless you and your future family.
Thanks Anne!
Pingback: Daily Post 01/12/2011 | 燃灯佛所
Well written. I completely agree that such strict emphasis on excelling in academics – in all subjects (except gym and drama) – leads to a lack of passion in any one thing. I was brought up this way, maybe not as harsh as described in Chua’s article, but with parents with similar philosophies – get good grades, graduate valedictorian, go to college, become an engineer, work in high-tech and have a high paying job. All of which I did, and now I’m unhappy with my career, and am at a complete loss as to what my own interests are because I could never pursue them when I was growing up. I think back to school, and am starting to recognize what I actually enjoyed but ignored because it wasn’t part of “the plan.”
My high school writing teacher pulled me aside one day and said “Julie, you are the best student I’ve had in my career. But you excel at so many things, you’re going to have a really hard time figuring out what you want to do.” Boy, was she right.
With my son, currently 14 months old, I plan to teach him the value of education, but I’m going to encourage him to find what he loves and what his strengths are. Granted, I won’t just let him give up on something when it gets hard, if I can tell he just absolutely hates it, why force it on him?
Anyway, thanks for the response to the article. Very well written.
“I think back to school, and am starting to recognize what I actually enjoyed but ignored because it wasn’t part of “the plan.””
For electives I took art classes all throughout high school. Near the end of undergrad, out of the blue I decide to stop making new drawings / toying around with Photoshop, in order to focus on my studies. I think a part of me died that day; or at least, it is hibernating very deeply.
Thanks for the great contrast, Jean. The interesting thing to note here is that if chinese mothers parent their sons just as vigorously? my husband – and I know lots of Chinese guys, being Chinese myself – who don’t have to go through the same “disciplines”. I think my in-laws are perhaps the most liberal, relaxed Chinese parents I’ve ever met even.
What do mothers of sons have to say?
they don’t treat sons as strict, sons have a little more freedom than daughters
Thank you, Jean, for letting people know that not all Chinese mothers agree with Chua.
Helen
Jean,
please do not have babies with your husband.
To all interracial couples: i’m serious. don’t get impregnated and just give birth, that is being selfish. think about the children.
When you go buy a dog do you look for a mutt? no, people want pure-breeds.
Yes, I would rather have a mutt than a pure-bred dog.
That’s ridiculous.
Doesn’t matter which ethnicity you are, because of, you know, history, you’re no more “pure” than anyone else on this planet.
If you’re Han Chinese, you’re the result of many, many generations of assimilation and absorption of other ethnicities.
Likewise if you’re any kind of European.
I’m German but I hold no illusions that I am of “pure” German stock, I’m pretty sure I have some colorful characters from all over the place in my family tree.
As far as I am concerned, the more diverse we are as a species, the better. The concept of the “other” has to go.
If America had more parents like Amy, perhaps America would be in a better state today.. America has been pampered for far too long.. people have everything handed to them on a platter. Kids get jobs even if they dont do so well in school so they can afford to fuck around. But in China and India (where I originally am from), you cant! You will literally end up on the streets, begging in a bowl or killing yourself cos your dont have enough money to eat. So I get where my parents are coming from. But hey, that doesnt mean you just bite the bullet and do what they tell you to do. If they are too set in their ways (childhood has a strong impact on you), they show them the way. Show them that this generation is more secure, we have the money, we can take risks, we dont have to get As all the time and still make a good living. Growing up, I was an A student, and I regret not picking up a passion in life but now that I have this fabulous job, ALL i do is focus on learning new skills and expanding my horizon and meeting new people from different cultures. There are two ways to make it big in life – study hard first, make money, enjoy life or enjoy life, work hard and make money. Both work. One is more secure than the other, thats all
Love your parents, they did what they did for a reason!!
Also, I think its juvenile to lament your upbringing. Everyone comes from a ‘strange place’. Its up to you to normalize that! Imagine a boy from a typical red-neck family… he needs to learn about the world and expand his horizon too and perhaps if his parents would have paid some attention to him growing up, he wouldn’t have smoked pot and coke in school and perhaps have a decent job right now. And to be honest, it shocks me when i hear some kids talk to their American parents.. they are soooo rude!!! You will never find an Asian kid say such things to his/her parents. So guess what I am trying to say is Asian upbringing is not all bad… we need to find a balance between the two cultures and hence a Asian Caucasian couple should be celebrated! And I completely disagree that Asian parents are the ones who are critical about their kids… have you watched Desperate housewives??
Great write up Jean,
I too was raised by first generation Chinese parents, and as a father of 3 young children I found Amy’s stance repulsive. I find myself dismayed and disappointed that the same style of tactics are still in play today. I see it when I hit the major asian cities (Toronto, Vancouver) The result? I see an abundance of asian kids who have no clue how to socialize or carry themselves in social settings. I sometimes wonder if these parents even know what is in store for their kids when they hit the real world and someone is trying to throw them under the bus, or eat their lunch.
I am the mother of a mixed race child brought up in the way you suggest to discover his talents, drive, etc. Without pressure. At seven he still couldn’t read. But he was already a quite brilliant artist. He resisted any suggestion to make art his career. “It’s just for me” he said.
At fifteen he got the bit between his teeth and studied single-mindedly until he got into med school (in spite of the fact he was in a failing state school – his father and I are both educated but not rich). After one year of med school he dropped out (he “didn’t like it”) and he has been sitting on the sofa ever since (four years). To say he lacks drive is an understatement. He seems to have a personality disorder. The same one as my father seems to have (OCPD). My father was brought up in a much more old-school style.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but what children achieve may have nothing to do with how you bring them up at all.
Just for the record, I know a whole bunch of white women married to Asian guys. I think you should just ignore the trolls.
I am a first generation Indian immigrant. I moved to US about 20 years ago and let me share my view.
From comments I read here and Amy Chua’s article, prevailing feedback is from people who moved here 15-20 years back or kids of these parents who were born in US. One thing everyone needs to understand is, 20 years back there were very few opportunities in China and India. Only way to maximize your chance of a good life (mind you I am talking basics of life. Reasonable shelter, sufficient food and relative stability) was through education. That’s what my parents saw and that’s why they emphasizedAnon importance of education. Does it mean they would have not liked if I played soccer or Piano or basketball? Absolutely not. They would love to see me enjoying and doing what I like to do. However, since competition is high to get in good schools and majors, they always made sure I studied hard and when one grows up like that, it is natural that some of the same beliefs are carried over even though circumstances are not same and that’s where you see strict parenting like Amy.
One other point, not all kids are passionate about things and leaving them to their own devices, majority of them will engage in activities that will not prepare them for adult life. People like Jean are exception (even Jean’s husband is an exception from average Caucasian male). Kids do need some guidance and structure in their life. That does not mean they need to employ extreme measures. Kids need to learn that they need to work hard at things in life which they don’t like if they want to live well. I bet no more than 10% of people really love what they do. For rest of 90% it is work that is available to them and they have to do it. And lessons of child hood where they work hard at things they do not like and succeed serves them well later in life.
I read the article to which this replies and it left me horrified.
Firstly, does she seriously think that depriving her children of social time and kid’s stuff is going to make up for playing piano in the Carnegie Hall? Simple answer is no, and kids should be allowed to find the things that they enjoy and are actively good at, and also the level at which they’re happy working. All kids are different, and imposing a ‘one-size-fits-all’ approach is only going to damage both their kids and their relationship to that kid.
There’s a phenomenon here in the UK where children find their spare time filled by their parents with all sorts of activities- swimming club, music lessons, martial arts lession, language classes, yoga and aerobics etc. It’s usually called ‘hot-housing’ and there’s a lot of evidence to suggest such an approach is damaging children by putting pressure on them and also not allowing them to have time to themselves.
Secondly, the emphasis on the music, and forcing her children to play for hours on end is little more than abuse. The choice to play a musical instrument should be a choice made by the child and the parent equally, and then encouraged but not made into a torture exercise or some sort of obligation. I teach double bass and I want children who actively want to be there to learn, not unwilling children with parents breathing down their necks. I chose to play because I was given the chance to do so in school, it interested me and my parents made it clear that they expected me to practice and attend lessons because of my own choice.
I’ve had several pupils in my time who, like the Amy Chua article, were obligated by parents to play, and the sad thing is that many will simply reach a certain point where they’ll quit the lessons and then never even pick the instrument up again for their simple personal enjoyment. That, to me at least, is saddening because it’s so easily avoided.
completely agree – I practiced a fair amount when I was younger, because my brother and I were both in a routine of practicing an hour a day. By the time I hit middle school I was very technically advanced for my age. My parents didn’t force me to continue, and I stopped taking lessons, only to start again voluntarily a few months later. I didn’t practice as much in high school, as I was busy with other things, but enjoyed it, and will still play occasionally for pleasure.
I also wrote about this, and it was re-posted on Tech Crunch. I received a ton of mail and comments that fell into several categories (I am generalizing here)
You can’t say one style of parenting is better than the other
I agree, Amy Chua is over the top
I disagree, you Americans are fat, lazy, etc.
I was raised with the type of parenting Chua proposes and I would never raise my child like that, wish I was raised in a more “American” way – basically, the same comments I read here.
What I did NOT get, not one, from anyone, was an email, tweet, or comment from a single person who said, “I wish I had been raised by Amy Chua or someone like her. I feel being allowed to be independent, follow my own interests, was a mistake.”
I just thought that was interesting, and I did not read any such comment here, either.
As for the husband working all night on a math problem – my husband is the same way, and so am I. I really love my work. So, I can’t play the piano. I’m over it.
To Jean Hsu:
the funny thing is that i never thought she was harsh until my family moved into the suburbs and found that kids got payed $5 for washing the dishes. i know you said you weren’t raised around those Asian families, and that might be why you have the American view.
I remember having a close friend and have contests to see which of our lives are more bitter. We’d have daily matches and go “guess what? my dad kicked me out of the house for ONE HOUR when he found out i got a B- on a test” and i’d retort “that’s NOTHING. my mom would close the piano lid on my fingers everytime i play a wrong note!” then “MY DAD COOKS ME FIVE TIMES A DAY!!
”
To me it was the norm and there was nothing dramatic about it. it’s like hearing someone tell you “you missed your bus and your parents refused to take you to school! That’s crueeeel!”
I had a very similar experience to yours, but I’m not that surprised that the article was so controversial (the title alone seemed to be a launching pad to attract criticism). And I think my experience was similar to yours. My parents were not so much strict as they were critical. Appreciate the post!
I think Amy Chua may be insecure about her identity as an ABC. Thus, she asserts her Chinese identity by acting out as the stereotypical “Chinese mom”.
As a first generation Chinese immigrant, I feel lucky to be able to literally appreciate the best of both worlds.
As an ABC myself, I find it very sad when other Asian Americans are quick to secede to Western values and thinking, as opposed to taking an unbiased view on those matters.
The fact that Jean made the point to separate herself from “other Asian families” in her area just shows me her bias, and perhaps, prejudices towards her own people. Even more hypocritical is how she acknowledged her parents used some of the same tactics that Amy Chua describes, but then is quick to condemn the article as a whole.
Jean, I don’t think you realize that your own success is attributed to the fact that your parents share the same core values that Amy presents. For you to criticize Amy’s views is incredibly short sighted, and just reeks of an identity crisis.
Mag, I think that Jean wanted to emphasize that even though her parents used some of the practices described in Amy’s article they also put a lot of emphasis on the supportive role of a parent. In my opinion it is the rationale behind Amy’s article that is completely wrong. She can’t force children to do something they don’t like. This may have detrimental consequences as far as their natural development is concerned.
First of all, Amy Chua’s book is not intended as a guide book for parenting. It’s really about her own struggles of being a good Chinese mom in America. Maybe she went a bit too far, but she did realize that when she raised her second daughter. I can tell that you have been successful with your career and life. I just wished that you give a bit more acknowledgement to your parents, NOT because they did’t push you too hard, but because they helped you realize how important a good education is, and saved every penny for your Princeton tuition.
Yes I realize the WSJ article misrepresented her book, but it is still good that this topic is now out in the open and people are discussing it. I do acknowledge and thank my parents for their emphasize on education, and am extremely grateful that they paid for my tuition. That doesn’t mean that I can’t disagree with the extreme way that many other Chinese parents raise their children.
I don’t fully agree with some of the extreme methods Amy Chua used. However, what I dislike is that some people tend to focus on the can’t-do list and some other things while ignoring the good lessons that we can learn from her.
Many children want to live up to their parent’s goals that was set for them when they are born, it was how their parents was raised. Every mother wants good grades for their children as they know that their child have succeeded in something that well, gave them pride. I am taking a psychology class that have talked about Amy’s article, but one thing I notice was that that was how her parents raised her. Many parents take a look back to their childhood and understands both why their mothers and fathers wanted them to exceed. Your parents raised you into not really caring much about the Chinese culture, to put it bluntly. I am raised with parents who could adapt to Western cultures and stay with the Chinese traditions. Every parents are different, though they do share common goals as to want their kids to have a better life. Some parenting styles work and some parenting style don’t work, it just counts on how you want to raise your kids, nothing else matters.
I think the title is insulting. Every culture has it’s strengths and weaknesses and I think Amy is overconfident in her belief that her culture is superior which i think is incorrect. I think being a parent requires a fair balance and taking what is good from all cultures of our society.
The next step to perfection is the robot.
Diversity and creativity!
Hi Jean,
I know I’m rather late to the party here, but still I want to thank you heartily for posting your thoughts in regards to the Amy Chua topic. I was in tears of joy knowing that I’m not the only out there.
During my childhood, I dealt with parents that wanted the same type of perfection out of me. Being such an anxious person all my life, I was never able to deliver when under pressure. Flash forward to today, I am now working at an excellent company in software engineering field, I’m a singer, a dancer returning to ballet on pre pro level, pianist, beadcrafter, jewelcrafter, study game mechanics for fun, etc. I also became literate in Chinese, all because I wanted to and had the drive for it. It is amazing what a person can achieve when so much parental pressure is removed. Having known that, I too believe that people should be able to learn and excel the way your husband does.
Why is the art of music required to endure the ill-informed antics of such inartistic imbeciles as Amy Chau? Her lust for fame as an old-fashioned stage mother of either a famous violinist (yet another mechanical Sarah Chang?) or a famouls pianist (yet another mechanical Lang Lang?) shines through what she perceives as devotion to the cultivation of the cultural sensitivities of her two unfortunate daughters.
Daughter Lulu at age 7 is unable to play compound rhythms from Jacques Ibert with both hands coordinated? Leonard Bernstein couldn’t conduct this at age 50! And he isn’t the only musician of achievement with this-or-that shortcoming. We all have our closets with doors that are not always fully opened.
And why all this Chinese obsession unthinkingly dumped on violin and piano? What do the parents with such insistence know of violin and piano repertoire? Further, what do they know of the great body of literature for flute? For French horn? For organ? For trumpet? Usually, nothing!
For pressure-driven (NOT professionally-driven!) parents like Amy Chua their children, with few exceptions, will remain little more than mechanical sidebars to the core of classical music as it’s practiced by musicians with a humanistic foundation.
Professor Chau better be socking away a hefty psychoreserve fund in preparation for the care and feeding of her two little lambs once it becomes clear to them both just how empty and ill-defined with pseudo-thorough grounding their emphasis has been on so-called achievement.
Read more about this widespread, continuing problem in Forbidden Childhood (N.Y., 1957) by Ruth Slenczynska.
______________________
Andre M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
Formerly Bass Trombonist
The Metropolitan Opera of New York,
Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
The Juilliard Orchestra,
Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.
Have any of you actually noticed she was making a self-deprecating article? Yes, most of you missed the humor and took it too seriously: She was laughing at her country’s stereotypes and raising style!
Notice the parts : “Roughly 0%” “How do we produce so stereotypically perfect children” and “All children play the piano and violin here”
In fact, she is attacking the strict upbringing, and that stereotypical view
I divide my year annually between New York and Shanghai. One of my common visitations in the latter city is to the area in and around The Shanghai Conservatory of Music. About four years back the school built a large new building on Fenyang Lu. Along the street side is a lower level with a string of music stores stocked with new instruments. In four of those stores I counted, literally, one trumpet, one horn, one trombone, no tuba, two flutes, one clarinet, one oboe, no bassoon, a handful of strings (but no string bass), and two-hundred pianos! The single trombone (my instrument) looked and felt like it had been made in an industrial arts school as a class project. I asked one of the clerks how many trombone students were
then enrolled in the Conservatory. “Five,” he replied. I told him it would be impossible for any serious student of that instrument to plan advancement playing such useless metal and asked what brand of instruments are taught upstairs. All the trombones were imported by the school, only as needed, from Yamaha in Japan. But, why the sea of pianos?
Most parents do not want their children spending, i.e., wasting, their time on any instrument for which a student can not enter a contest and win prizes. Prizes mean medals and certificates, which Mommy and Daddy can display as their own achievements by extension. It is the major conservatories in China (Shanghai, Beijing, Shenyang, and Wuhan) which are responsible for continuing to nurture this false status, while, visually at least, giving the external impression that China is a major cultural locus of Western classical music. Anyone who has heard the wind sections of a major symphony orchestra in China will hear just how major the cultural locus is in China for those instruments. Naïve morons; school and parent alike!
For the serious student having neither interest nor ability to become a
graduate of Harvard Medical School, this phony sequence of contest successes may lead to Juilliard in New York or Curtis in Philadelphia. “If a clown like Lang Lang can make it, then so can my little angel. Who is, of course, the most adept keyboard wizard to blossom since Lawrence Welk or Rachmaninoff.” Stage mothers: Away with them!
All of this clap-trap nonsense has no relationship whatsoever to two very important issues: music or Asian American. It is, with the rarest of exceptions, largely Oriental in the homeland. Atavistic immigrants from those eastern cultures or those descended directly therefrom – like the ever-psychobashing Kommandant Amy Chua – have some untested, sentimental notion that music opens doors and ensures careers in whatever direction the unmusical music student chooses; which the student is free to choose, so long as it isn’t music. (Try to figure out that one. “You are free to study physics or mathematics, so long as you don’t attempt to make a career of them.”)
For the past forty years during my own studies in medicine and music in New York I have been wedded to and worked closely with and around nurses, physicians, surgeons, and medical technicians active in all the standard disciplines. Those persons have come from all modern regions of the world. And, yes, some of my coworkers have come from the beloved Harvard Medical School. But, I can write with authority, the number of those professional persons who have had any direct contact at any times in their lives with piano or violin is insignificantly small.
No one has ever wasted time typing me as a wimp. Nevertheless, with an Amy Chua of my own only thinly masking a contempt while ostensibly trying to encourage me before the age of ten by classing me as “garbage, “lazy,” “useless,” and a host of other niceties (a savage, a juvenile delinquent, boring, common, low, completely ordinary, a barbarian) all the while forbidding me to sit on a toilet until I can play triplets in one hand against duolets in the other mechanistically en duo with a metronome might have (likely would have) set me up both for advanced training to climb The Texas Tower and chronic constipation.
___________________________
André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
Formerly Bass Trombonist
The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.
Continuing to follow the saga of what may be one of the more outrageous examples – and there are similar examples aplenty! – of the child abuses of Amy Chua, I think it timely and prudent to provide a healthy, humane counterpoint by way of a much different kind of example of adult guidance to a young stranger. To wit:
ADVICE TO A YOUNG PERSON INTERESTED IN A CAREER IN THE LAW
In May 1954, M. Paul Claussen, Jr, a 12-year-old boy living in Alexandria, Virginia, sent a letter to Mr Justice Felix Frankfurter in which he wrote that he was interested in “going into the law as a career” and requested advice as to “some ways to start preparing myself while still in junior high school.” This is the reply he received:
My Dear Paul:
No one can be a truly competent lawyer unless he is a cultivated man. If I were you I would forget about any technical preparation for the law. The best way to prepare for the law is to be a well-read person. Thus alone can one acquire the capacity to use the English language on paper and in speech and with the habits of clear thinking which only a truly liberal education can give. No less important for a lawyer is the cultivation of the imaginative faculties by reading poetry, seeing great paintings, in the original or in easily available reproductions, and listening to great music. Stock your mind with the deposit of much good reading, and widen and deepen your feelings by experiencing vicariously as much as possible the wonderful mysteries of the universe, and forget about your future career.
With good wishes,
Sincerely yours,
[signed] Felix Frankfurter
From THE LAW AS LITERATURE, ed. by Ephraim London, Simon and Schuster, 1960.
__________________
I knew that a Paul Claussen had been a major figure (1972-2007) in the Office of the Historian of The United States Department of State in Washington, with an abiding interest in The Great Seal of The United States. http://diplomacy.state.gov/documents/organization/101044.pdf
An obituary of Dr Claussen is on page 47 in http://2001-2009.state.gov/documents/organization/86414.pdf
and http://www.thefreelibrary.com/M.+Paul+Claussen,+history's+friend%3A+office+of+the+historian+suffers+a…-a0167843232
So, wishing to determine whether or not the elder Claussen was, indeed, the boy writing to Justice Frankfurter in 1954 I wrote to his former colleague at State. The reply received today follows.
—– Original Message —–
From: PA History Mailbox
To: ‘Andre M. Smith’
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:11 AM
Subject: RE: Chris Morrison
Dear Mr. Smith,
Copied below is the response I received from one of Paul Claussen’s long-time colleagues here in the Office of the Historian.
Yes it is. The young Paul wanted to be a lawyer and so decided to write Felix Frankfurter and ask for his advice. Frankfurter evidently was taken with his letter and wrote back at length…Frankfurter of course kept a copy and the text of the letter has been published in collections of Frankfurter’s writings.
Please contact us of you have any additional questions.
Best regards,
Chris
Christopher A. Morrison, Ph.D.
Historian, Policy Studies Division
U.S. Department of State
Office of the Historian (PA/HO)
_________________________________
Dr Claussen did follow the advice of Justice Frankfurter. And he came out of that advice none the worse for it. The world is much bigger, richer, more tolerant, and more laden with opportunities than the blinkered view of Amy Chua would have her daughters and fellow fear-laden mothers without Ivy League tenure believe.
For a very well-balanced alternative to the mania – and it is nothing less – to which the many Chuas of the world subscribe, read the refreshingly informed reports on http://orient.bowdoin.edu/orient/article.php?date=2009-12-04§ion=3&id=2, http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/09/28/china, and http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/10/16/liberalarts
________________________
André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
Formerly Bass Trombonist
The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.
Russians call me German, Germans call me Russian, Jews call me a Christian, Christians a Jew. Pianists call me a composer, composers call me a pianist. The classicists think me a futurist, and the futurists call me a reactionary. My conclusion is that I am neither fish nor fowl – a pitiful individual.
Anton Rubinstein (1829-94), composer, formidable Russian concert pianist, founder of The Saint Petersburg Conservatory (1862). http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=6&oq=%22anton+rubinstein&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLJ_enUS344US352&q=%22anton+rubinstein%22+youtube&gs_upl=0l0l2l850891lllllllllll0&aqi=g5s3
__________________________
WHO or WHAT is AMY CHUA?
Her father, Leon L. Chua, was born in The Philippines. He was graduated in 1959 from Mapúa Institute of Technology in Manila as a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering. His Master of Science followed from MIT in 1961. Amy was born in Champaign, Illinois on 26 October 1962 while Leon was pursuing his studies for a Ph.D. (1964) at The University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign. And it’s here in this synoptic review that her troubles begin with her shield in a contrived public relations makeover comastered by her publisher, Penguin. She states that she is Chinese. But her surname has not been identified anywhere as Chinese.
__________________________
Is the author fully ethnically Chinese? I am wondering because while I certainly have not met every Chinese person who has lived, I have known a fair number of Chinese yet have not met a single Chinese person with the author’s surname. I read somewhere that the author’s surname is a translation of a Chinese surname, Tsai, with which I am familiar. How many generations back in her direct family line, i.e. her parents or her parents’ parents, did her family come from China? I have not previously encountered a person who talks & writes so much about being Chinese & talks on behalf of the vast population of mothers born in China yet her surname & how I have heard it pronounced is very different from that with which I am familiar. While I wish to improve to better fluency in Mandarin, I have spoken enough Mandarin with native speakers to notice I have not heard Mandarin Chinese words pronounced with the same pronunciation as I hear her name pronounced. I truly am curious about what I have read briefly about a historical migration of immigrants, including the author’s ancestors, who immigrated to the Philippines, speak a language seemingly common among those immigrants & bear names that are translations from Mandarin Chinese into such language. It is an interesting occurrence I am curious to know more about. http://www.amazon.com/Chua-Chinese-didnt-already-know/forum/Fx2TW1617UZNULU/Tx2INJY62TIU5CI/1/ref=cm_cd_ef_rt_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&asin=1594202842
Cheap Social Worker said…
When reading excerpts from Amy Chua’s latest book, I noticed that she left out any reference to her Filipino background. Looking at Chua’s biography, her parents spent a considerable amount of time doing business in the Philippines, with her father even going to school there. Chua also spent a good portion of her childhood going back and forth between the United States and the Philippines, though I wonder if she ever went outside the walls of her gated community to interact with the main population. Given that Filipino values on education are very similar to these “Chinese” values Amy Chua promotes, why does “Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother” ignore her Filipino heritage completely? http://askthepinoy.blogspot.com/2011/01/does-prof-amy-chua-have-any-other.html
As a Harvard undergraduate during the years that the author was there, I do not recall the author attending any of the many meetings or social occasions held by the Asian students on campus. Although the book discusses the author’s “Chinese” upbringing, and refers to the Chinese food that she loved as a child and the “high culture” of her Chinese ancestors, there is little in the book to indicate that the author is, or considers herself to be, part of a larger community or network of Asians or Chinese in America, an affiliation that’s critical if the author’s voice is to be heard as at all representative of that community. http://www.amazon.com/review/R180XSBCBH3O89/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1594202842&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=
It’s not uncommon to hear alcoholics claim that it’s because they’re Irish or to hear that a bad temper is a result of bad genes. Chua is no different, and is justifying her abusive behavior based on the fact that she is Chinese. The reality is that Chua’s style is not a product of her Chinese heritage. Chua has never lived in China; her parents have not either. http://voices.yahoo.com/review-amy-chuas-battle-hymn-tiger-mother-7701018.html?cat=25
__________________________
It isn’t at all clear to me when and where Chinese culture came into the heritage of Amy Chua, if indeed it ever has, for the surname Chùa is, in fact, Vietnamese. It means temple and is commonly found in Buddhist and other religious contexts, e.g., (1) Chùa Pháp Hoa – Nam Úc, (2) Chùa Ph?t Tích [Temple of Saint Paul], (3) L? Khánh Thành D?i Hùng B?o Di?n Chùa Quang Minh, ph?n 1, and (4) t?i Chùa Ho?ng Pháp, H?c Môn, Sài Gòn.
Professor Chua is a graduate of El Cerrito High School in California. http://elcerritogauchos.net/ She claims a superiority of a Chinese culture she has never lived in but is married to a white American Jew. Attempting yet another of her unpersuasive slow-change / quick-change acts she has claimed to have inculcated so-called, but unspecified, Chinese values into her two American daughters. She clearly believes that unrelenting emotional pressure on children and simultaneous denial of affection toward them will improve their physical skills. What implausible culture that has lasted more than seventy-two consecutive hours has advocated such a bizarre relationship between parent and child? She states that she has denied her two daughters the experiences of having performed in school plays. But their father had to have had enough stage experience prior to having been admitted at age 21 into the Drama Department (1980-1982) of The Juilliard School in Manhattan to justify that admission.
__________________________
“all you need to be able to do [to get into Juilliard] is just be badass at one instrument and read music.”
* * *
I think that is an extremely simplistic way to look at it. There are children who are groomed for Juilliard from grade school onwards. Children who start playing at 3 or 4 and by the age of 10 are already practicing 6+ hours a day. It takes incredible long-term discipline to be “badass” at one instrument.
Juilliard grants a 10 minute audition. By the time you walk in, greet the jury, tune up, they get their papers ready to go, glance at your accompanist, you have 7 minutes to convince them that you are at the top of the top and that you have a viable career in performance ahead of you.
Harvard is, in some senses, more forgiving because you have so many more ways to prove yourself. You can show you are smart through grades, you can show that you earned academic honors, you can show character through recommendation…all Juilliard gives you is 7 minutes to blow them away. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/439847-harder-than-harvard.html
__________________________
Professor Chua has stepped as an authority into several worlds in which she has no known experience and attempted to convince readers deeply concerned with the subjects she has written about that her word is the best word, founded as she believes on substantial personal experience. She moves in step with a long and continuing line of crackpot self-styled such authorities to lay claim to a success citing her ill-chosen and unexamined demographic whopping sampling of two, one of whom has effectively rejected her horrific emotional, social, and artistic models in favor of a pursuit of a life as a real person.
Does anyone now remember the scam of Linus Pauling (1901-94), author of “Vitamin C and the Common Cold”? In 1970 Dr Pauling, a hustling chemist with no patients and no clinical studies to substantiate his claims, convinced many of the world’s non-thinkers that tanking up on vitamin C would cure the common cold, cure cancer, cure heart disease, and wipe out miscellaneous infections. He amassed a small fortune from his publications. Forty-one years later? Anyone who has contracted the seed basis for a cold still sniffles, cancer is rampant, heart disease remains with us, and infections are a functioning reality, increasing in their variety, throughout the human species. And Dr Pauling? Who? http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html
Obstetricians write books on running. Physicists write books on philosophy. Social workers write books on love. Orthopedists write books on financial investment. Vitamin gurus write books advising pursuit of the Fountain of Youth in the manner of Herodotus and Juan Ponce de León (1474-1521). Generals write unbiased books on history. Psychoanalysts – with the highest suicide rate of any professional group in the world – plumb the woes of others promising answers of consolation.
And, reminding us, yet again, that fools rush in where angels fear to tread, Professor of Law Amy Chua has overarchingly tried to portray herself with her menopausal-crisis magnum opus that she is (1) an authority on music instruction of the preadolescent, (2) is an informed intellectual on the relationships both distinguishing and binding alien cultures, (3) she believes that both private and public sustained and repetitive humiliations of defenseless children will inevitably lead to a positive strengthening of those children’s characters, (4) she believes that children perceive through the senses of sound and sight what their parents want them to perceive, (5) that there likely will be no relationship between enforced disruptive prohibitions of physiological functions of urination and defecation in early childhood and a possible dysfunction of those systems manifesting later in life, (6) that denial of nutrition is an educational tool, (7) that avowals of love following psychological and physical cruelties meted to the young do not establish a perverse link between those avowals and cruelties, (8) that two daughters who know well that their pussy-whipped father had the valuable preprofessional experiences of the very stage presence they may have wished for themselves in adolescence have not formed an unhealthy opinion of compromised male hegemony during those years it might have benefited them in the formation of what will become their future relations with men, (9) that, while their mother was referring to their minds and their bodies openly and publicly in the most vile terms of contempt and debasement their father sat idly by, possibly out of sight but not out of earshot, (10) that the father of two daughters is portrayed in print and public appearances by their mother as the bringer of jollity when permitted to do so by their mother (Egads!), (11) that the phrase “Head of Household” has been perverted in the Chua example to refer to the elder with the loudest mouth and the least flexible personality, (12) [The reader here is invited to continue filling in the blanks . . .]
Whether or not any modern Chinese man or woman – or, in the example of Amy Chua, any Filipina descended from Vietnamese – subscribes to any of the tenets of historical Confucianism, those tenets continue, for many modern Orientals both in and from the Eastern lands, to elicit a sentimental ideal to which many pay lip service in time of reference.
Professor Chua has made a significant fundamental error in attempting to define her relationship with her two daughters. “Parenting method” is not a synonym for “Being a parent.” The former arises from the jargon and complex overlays of institutional structure established by American teachers colleges, their promulgators, and devoted acolytes fallen under the influences of Frederick Wilson Taylor [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Winslow_Taylor] and leaders of The Efficiency Movement [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficiency_Movement] in the first decade of the twentieth century; good for building the Model T but less than good for building character. “Being a parent” arises from the traditional standing of parents within all well-established functioning societies.
With one exception, all other public pictures of the face of Professor Chua portray her with her signature toothy grin. The only one in which she is not smiling is that showing her imperiously overseeing her younger daughter during a music practice session. http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/RV-AB161_chau_i_G_20110107132417.jpg
That this parenting nitwit can lay claim to so-called traditional Chinese values, while supplanting the very bases of those values with individual license to cruelty and an immodest flaunting of self at the expense of those children traditional values would obligate her to protect from adversity, is a revelation of ignorance and egocentricity wholly at odds with the established teachings of Confucius.
__________________________
André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
Formerly Bass Trombonist
The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.
Amy Chua has never lived in China. Her understanding of its culture, that is, the culture as it’s truly lived by the indigenous people in their dailyness, then must be that of the tourist. Here perhaps is one view of a China she may or may not have seen.
http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_5057209_1.html [Each of the four pictures can be enlarged for clearer viewings.] In what likely is Nanning, the capitol of Guang Xi region, the boy was caught stealing money to pursue his addiction in Internet gaming. (This is a common problem in China, especially among adolescent boys. http://playnoevil.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/1076-China-continues-focus-on-Internet-Addiction-Reading-the-Tea-Leaves.html) As punishment his father has publicly stripped off the boy’s clothes, lathered him with some unstated brown caking (which I shall discretely hope is mere mud), bound his hands behind his back, and then pulled him on his back and buttocks by one foot for disgrace through a very-public area of the city.
On contemporary corporal punishment in China:
A third of them [child respondents] said corporal punishment negatively affected their personalities, causing them to become introverted and depressed.
Legal experts cited by the paper said China should ban corporal punishment in its marriage laws to protect children from physical and psychological harm and to protect the rights of minors.
They blamed the common occurrence of corporal punishment in China on the traditional belief that children were a part of their parents, not individuals. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-12/07/content_397964.htm
The routine beatings allegedly given to child gymnasts in China are no different to the corporal punishment that was once part of daily life in English public schools, according to the head of the Olympic movement.
Mr Rogge said he believed that if physical punishment is being used to train young athletes in China, then it is likely to be confined to sports such as gymnastics and swimming, where the age of competitors is much younger than in the other Olympic sports. What is not known is how widespread the practice is. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1504716/Chinas-abuse-of-its-athletes-is-no-different-to-Britains-public-schools-says-Olympics-chief.html
“It was a pretty disturbing experience. I was really shocked by some of what was going on. I know it is gymnastics and that sport has to start its athletes young, but I have to say I was really shocked. I think it’s a brutal programme. They said this is what they needed to do to make them hard.
“I do think those kids are being abused. The relationship between coach and child and parent and child is very different here. But I think it goes beyond the pale. It goes beyond what is normal behaviour. It was really chilling.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2368416/Olympics-Pinsent-upset-at-Chinese-abuse.html
Anyone who thinks the Chinese are a race of genteel pacifists who, collectively, design their lives to awaken every morning wiser than they went to bed the night before is a candidate for some serious awakening of his own. As a whole person Amy Chua is a type; she is not an aberration.
Now, for one question I have not seen asked anywhere. . . Does Professor Chua play a music instrument? If so, let’s hear some of it. If not, from what sources has she gathered her standards about music technique and style and how they might be taught to a very young child who has shown no particular affinity for any instrument? Can she play any music from what she has demanded from either of her two daughters? Can she play simultaneously triptlets in the left hand and duolets in the right? Can she perform, even modestly, http://www.alfred.com/samplepages/00-16734_01~02.pdf, the composition she has demanded her post-toddler daughter play with assurance?
There can be no doubt that Professor Chua likes violence, so long as it’s not directed at her, the core definition of a bully. She has said recently that there are parts of the world in which some of her parenting techniques might be considered child abuse. I do wish she could be persuaded to name (1) which some of those parts of the world are, (2) just which parenting techniques she is referring to, and (3) why she believes those same techinques should not be defined as child abuse in her home state of Connecticut.
How did such a reprehensible woman obtain a position so high up on the feeding chain with so little prior experience in law education?
HUSBAND, faculty of Yale Law School since 1990 : Jed Rubenfeld
WIFE, faculty of Yale Law School since 2001 : Amy Chua
As the lawyers may put it, Let the evidence speak for itself. The Tiger Mom has made it on her own claws.
One last question: Who prevents Professor Chua from sitting on a toilet or eating a meal when, at any given moment, she is vexed beyond her capacity to complete an academic assignment or any other professional obligation within the proper time allocated for its completion?
_______________
André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
Formerly Bass Trombonist
The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.
Further on Chua as a Chinese surname . . .
My wife, a gyn surgeon, hails from a family of intellectuals and professionals in Shanghai. She has four sisters and three brothers. Among those eight are six of their children between the ages of twenty-one and thirty-six. Chua as a Chinese surname is unknown to them all.
Bilingual speakers at the consulates in New York for Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia all have told me the word chùa – with a grave – (= temple) is Vietnamese. A trilingual speaker at the City Campus Mahayana Temple at 133 Canal St in Manhattan has told me that the word chùa is common in Buddhist use but is not Chinese. In the illustration of the attachment hereto, the word for “temple” emblazoned is transliterated into pinyin as si or shu. http://www.mahayana.us/ But, again, I have it on the authority of my Chinese family that “chua” – at least as it’s pronounced in the nations subjoined to China and in English – is definitely not a Chinese word or name.
Perhaps Chinese speakers of languages other than Wu or Mandarin, from elsewhere on the Mainland, may have an informed knowledge on this point of nomenclature countering what I’ve sent to you here.
The faces of both father Leon Chua http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~chua/ and daughter Amy Chua http://www.leighbureau.com/speaker.asp?id=268 are textured similarly to reflect a family origin, at least within the previous handful of Chua generations as likely more south than Mainland China; although within fluid populations, this is speculative. Honestly, though, that part of the world is such a mixed bag of all its ingredients that . . .
_______________
André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
Formerly Bass Trombonist
The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.
The grass is always greener on the other side. You won’t know until you are there and experiencing it that you can really form a truthful/valid opinion. There are not enough or possibly no evidenced based fact that can back up your claim. ( Correct me if I am wrong). Your past experiences in life makes you who you are today and I agree with the others who are openminded about Amy’s or even other parents of different ethnic origin’s background to understand who she/they really are as person and as parents.
I think we should view it as ” this is what works for them at the time they were presented with these issues in life.” Easy for you to say these because you really haven’t experience hardship in the true sense of the word , that the only light you see at the end of the tunnel is “education is they way to success” or the way to get out of your situation and get a better life. You haven’t really raised any children to understand what parents’ go through , the emotional roller coaster, the fine balance between being strict and being relaxed. Children have different personalities too, some might actually be benefitted by this kind of parenting , others may not. You just got to know your kids and what works better for them and proceed from there. Its not black and white. Not everybody who is raised the American way are creative. Some are jobless, some have no direction in life just life just like people of other ethnic groups who have different ways of parenting. Your job as a parent is to do the best you could to provide the opportunity for your kids to reach their potentials and succeed. If they get it, then fine, they will be rewarded for their hardwork . If not, then they will live the life they want according to how they want it and how hard they want to work for it. Its their choice once they are adults anyway.
I am sorry you feel this way instead of being thankful that your parents’ actually raised you with the best intentions for you, otherwise you will be raised in China which will definitely give you a different sets of coping mechanism and different personality than having been raised here in the USA with all the perks and easy life.
There is a recurring theme without solid core that continues to recycle on the question of Amy Chua and her style as a mother. J.G. (unfortunately anonymous, as are most of the endorsements of Professor Chua) has written
I think it’s easy to take cheap shots at Chua, but it’s hard to argue that the average American child needs less discipline, less direction or less respect for others.
It might seem amusing to mock her (her “cushy job” and “hottie husband”), but harder to actually consider the points being made in a non-defensive way, without trying to paint yourself as the “cool mom” who prefers three martini playdates?
p.s. It seems ironic that an Asian-American female who went to Williams (fulfilling a fantasy of Chinese parents everywhere) would paint her parents as laissez-faire and herself as moderately motivated.
Posted by: J.G. | January 18, 2011 at 02:31 PM http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecareerist/2011/01/chinese-moms.html
I, for one, have no interest whatsoever in her “cushy job” and “hottie husband.” Nor do I have any objection to her having become a millionaire from the sales of her book and that she will be well on her way to becoming a multimillionare once the planned translations of it into thirteen of the world’s languages have been completed. My uncompromising objections to Professor Chua are two-fold: her abuses of young children pursued to further her own narcissistic urgencies and her deep commitment of abuse of the art of music – of which she seemingly has no knowledge whatsoever – for reasons having nothing to do with that art. My shots at her are far from what J.G. calls “cheap shots.” They do in fact go to the heart of the problems with her that remain my chief concerns.
J.G. and most of his fellow travelers in their tepid defenses of Professor Chua continue to focus on her inherited emphasis of the sorry state of public education in The United States. What else is new?
As with most of the ringing endorsements of Amy Chua, those from J.G. are clearly from a mind not wholly engaged. He has written ” it’s hard to argue that the average American child needs less discipline, less direction or less respect for others. In his tangled syntax I’m quite sure he means – at least I’m hoping he means – it’s hard to argue that the average American child does not need more discipline, more direction or more respect for others.
J.G. has written further, “p.s. It seems ironic that an Asian-American female who went to Williams (fulfilling a fantasy of Chinese parents everywhere) . . . “ Again, but this time TWO thoughts from nowhere! What has Williams College to do with Amy Chua (Harvard, A.B. ’84)? And since when has Williams even been on the “fantasy” palate “of Chinese parents everywhere?”
Professor Chua usually receives the quality of defense she deserves.
____________________________
André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
Formerly Bass Trombonist
The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.
The WSJ article is an “excerpt from her book.” So, now, Amy Chua can keep pack-pedaling all she wants. She has uttered so many contradictions about what she “really” meant since her article and her book were published. She’s a narcissist who over-controlled and abused her young daughters, and now, over a year since her book was published, she still laughs and makes light of her emotional abuse toward them. Her book is disturbing especially since she’s an accomplished writer and accomplished law professor. She’s lacking emotional intelligence: just read her book–she reminds me of a classic case of a perpetrator who plays the victim role: she’s a master at it. She’s behaved as a harsh, hard-core, over-pressuring parent with her slam against American parenting values with her accusation that American parents coddle their children; care too much about their feelings; and “are perfectly content to let their children turn out badly.” She has a Manichean view with her perception of what she claims is the “Western vs. Chinese mother” parenting. Maybe she should have spent more time considering how her article and book would be received by a large group of educated Americans instead of working so hard after-the-fact to sell her slant on her book as meant to be taken as “tongue-in-cheek.”
In her book, she describes her hard-core behaviors in her “war-zone” house while “battling” her daughters with her “virtuous circle” training…seems like a cycle of abuse…it’s very sad that she wasn’t able to “break” the cycle many years earlier. Maybe all that money she gained from her intended-to-shock article and subsequent book with her seemingly insincere attempt to conclude whether she learned anything about her behaviors leaves me believing she didn’t achieve anything afterall: Oh, wait, she profitted greatly, financially, from all her controversial statements. Perhaps she can use the money to seek therapy. Just wished she would have done that BEFORE writing her book that she claims is to be read as a “memoir.”
On page 191 in her book, she writes that while responding to her older daughter, quote: “But sometimes when I know I’m wrong and dislike myself, something inside me hardens and pushes me to to go further. So, I said, I never asked you to run home-that’s stupid. You must look ridiculous….” Amy Chua needs to learn what it feels like to behave in a “gentle,” loving way. All that cold, hard-heartedness is a draconian method of parenting. Since her article and her book were published, the phrase “to be chewed out” has a whole new meaning to many Americans/Westerners.
Thank God so many people railed against her “method” of parenting: I’m glad there are so many “individuals” with their “individual” responses now-to-be read around the globe. Seems her disdain for the American/ Western parenting value of “individuality” is what makes each of us uniquely qualified to respond to what she calls– provokingly– “Chinese” parenting: I imagine she might become “unhinged” reading this reply.
THanks for the article
I think that there are some true differences in China and America. China’s educational system provides only one route to a particular goal, while America has lots of leeways (despite the Asian-American clients I worked with saying that their kids “have no future” or “are up to no good”). Perhaps that is because the parents know how they found their way of success…
For example, Asian student has to take a “life-or-death” test that determines their future, but American student takes multiple tests then chooses which scores to send, which then gets evaluated along with school grade, essay, teacher’s recommendation, and outside activity. And Ivy League grads and non-Ivy League grads experience same amount of success in USA due to the “equal opportunity” clause. I worked as academic counselor for 16 years now and I know what goes on.
But that also means that USA has too much leeways in comparison to China since USA is land of 2nd and 3rd chances, unfortunately. It is good and bad. Your statement does prove right that USA has lot of leeway.
On the other hand, some of our premed students who became successful doctors weren’t valedictorians or salutorians at a competitive high schools (although they did have high GPA in high school). Just because one gets a B in one of the AP science class does not mean that he’s doomed. But many of my students who went on to premed tell me that some college student labels the science classes as weed-out classes. 200 beginning, then weed out to 90-100. Depends on college. Sometimes the grades in high school DO NOT really define who you are. Although they are key to getting into good college. Many of the students who earned B+ in AP science class, along with various other factors in high school that aren’t too favored, end up succeeding in college. These students are often advised to review the weaker parts, improve their skills, and perhaps pre-study the weedout subjects.
again, thnx